The Science Of Fetal Pain

This is family policy matters program is produced by the North Carolina family policy Council of profamily research and education organization dedicated to strengthening and preserving the family and from the studio. Here's John Rustin, president of the North Carolina family policy Council, thank you for joining us this week for family policy matters. It is our pleasure to have Dr. David Prentiss with us on the program Dr. Prentiss as vice president and research director of the Charlotte luger Institute, which is the research and education arm of the Susan B.

Anthony list is also adjunct professor of molecular genetics at the John Paul II Institute at the Catholic University of America and an advisory board member for the Midwest stem cell therapy Center at the University of Kansas Medical Center. Dr. Prentiss previously served at the family research Council and Senior fellow for life sciences apprentices with us today to talk about the emerging scientific evidence on fetal pain and particularly why the science is important to the passage of House resolution 36. The pain capable unborn child protection act, which was recently approved by the United States House and is currently pending in the U.S. Senate Dr. Prentiss.

Welcome to the program.

Thank you so much. Great to be with you well. It's great to have you with us again and I appreciate so much all the great work that you do before we began discussing the HR 36. I want to take just a minute to talk about the science of fetal pain to give our listeners a better understanding of of what were discussing today. To what extent do studies show that unborn children can actually feel pain as early as 20 weeks after fertilization or even earlier during pregnancy. Other your watch lots of these studies to give you an example. We rode up some sort of one sentence summaries number of these studies and the front and back of one piece of paper we had about two dozen steady documenting the existence of pain in these little ones, as you said even earlier than 20 weeks post fertilization, which is what HR 36 addresses. This is a line of demarcation. Some of these show the beginning of of the nervous system, the ability to feel pain as early as 8 to 12 weeks after conception.

I mean, it's hard to imagine but really by that point in time you have started to develop all your various organ systems. Things are kind of employees. There's obviously a lot of fine tuning that needs to go on but the nerve pathways have begun to form you develop sensory nerves in many parts of the body and the connections are started to be formed certainly by 20 weeks after conception so that you can definitely since pain at that point in your life.

Well, Dr. Prentiss, what do we know from the science of fetal pain about the experiences of unborn children in the womb when it comes to pain and stress and is it true that unborn babies are even likely to experience pain at more intense levels than adults might will we do now they can experience pain and there's plenty of evidence. For example, simply if I came after you with a sharp object you would backup you would recoil and we see that, for example, when they're doing the amniocentesis for these little ones in the wound to check out and diagnose, we see that in terms of stressful hormonal responses and other sorts of biochemical responses and we of course see it, we start to measure the nerve responses someone as you mention very likely from the evidence.

These unborn babies experience pain more intensely than adults and there was a study that was published just a few weeks ago, around end of April. Were they were looking at newborns. In this case versus adults and were talking about newborns anywhere from two to maybe six days old. What they found was not even experiencing pain but just a slight touch like that. The end of a pencil against your foot.

These little babies would even sleep through that. But they would respond. Their brains would respond and 18/20 sites in the brain lit up in terms of a pain response.

18/20 that were seen also in adults that were tested the same way of never using a very fancy MRI machine to measure this, they also found that at that stage, these babies responded four times as intensely. Now it turns out, besides the pain mechanism and sensing it. We also have different neural mechanism that tempts down that pain food if I hit my thumb with a hammer.

I definitely feel it, but my body also response and tries to tell him that Dan so there's a feedback pathway to turn down the pain that doesn't even start performing our bodies until almost the time that were born and it's not complete until significant greater time after were born. So now one back the clock to five months after conception you're still in the womb, you can experience pain, but you have no mechanism to turn down. That's really interesting. Now the science of fetal pain is really serves as the basis for HR 36. The pain capable unborn child protection act of the U.S. House passed HR 36 on the second anniversary of the conviction of Philadelphia abortionist Kermit Gosnell who is now serving time in prison for killing at least three infants born alive during botched abortions at his abortion clinic. Dr. Prentiss, in your opinion did the gospel case play a role in the introduction and passage of HR 36 in the house. I really do think the Gosnell case did play a role. I mean, let's let's think about what this person did, he would partially deliver some babies and kill them in the process you would deliver some babies supposedly as part of the abortion and snip the spinal cords afterwords and so were talking about very late term abortions.

The same principles apply in terms of the pain and the agony that are experienced by these little ones even earlier. So at the five months after conception, which is what the bill addresses from then on your legal if this goes into law for an abortion to be performed simply because that little person can feel pain and it's just magnified now in terms of you think about even later on this person because now trying to destroy some of these young lives and again in an extremely painful manner, while absolutely it's incredibly disturbing what took place in that house of horrors, as it's been characterized, but it seems to have raised the public's consciousness of this issue in a very significant way and really I hope to set the stage for even greater consideration of measures like HR 36 in Congress. Now there is a provision in HR 36 that is designed specifically to protect unborn babies who are born alive during a botched abortion process and how would this tie into circumstances like you described in the common gospel case you write that you are in. In the case where there might be one of these botched abortions and in point of fact, even if an abortion is allowed as part of an exception. Let's say a medical emergency or write the bill states the doctor performing this quote abortion actually has to try to deliver the baby or do this in such a way to give this child the best chance for survival and then to even strengthen that point, there is a born alive infant protection part that requires a second position be present to provide care for the baby and that the baby be immediately transported to the hospital so the way the bill as written. It tries to give every possible chance for this little want to live and survive. Dr. Prince beyond fetal pain that many babies today who are born prematurely at or around 20 weeks can survive with medical assistance. A new study actually examined this issue. Can you tell us a little bit about that study and what it found. That's right. And interestingly enough, it was reported in the New York Times that he that was in the New England Journal of Medicine and what they found was that you there are little babies prematurely born as early as the same time for the bill.

20 weeks after conception five months in the world. These are very young tender lives used to be our technology was just not good enough to keep these little ones alive, but what this study found was they looked at a bunch of different hospitals across the country and they found that now there were some of these little ones even that young, who were surviving, but it was interesting though in fact what the paper found was that if you actually did something if you intervened to try to save them to try and help their little respiratory system you going and so on. All the sudden, many, many more of these little lives survive and I think one important point here in this paper that it brings out is doctor should not have the attitude that this is too young to survive, or be viable is what some of the people talk about but it's not too young to survive and they shouldn't have an attitude that were just going to let this little life go because they can't be resuscitated. The paper clearly showed you could intervene in very simple ways to help these young lives and many of them survived. In fact, a lot of them without any sort of impairment as they continued to grow is just astounding because if you think about it when Robie Wade was passed. Most people thought now you had to be at least 28 weeks in the womb to be able to even survive that sort of preterm birth. Now that it's been about a week or two per decade that that limit has been pushed past and I don't think were actually at the limit yet but were at a point where we are seeing if you do something if you care for them seeing a lot of these little lives survive and thrive and doctors are also performing surgery on unborn babies in utero and I think it's telling that often in no circumstances, depending upon what type of surgery.

They may be performing based on abnormality that that the child may have that they administer anesthesia in order to address the pain issues that that unborn child is facing.

It's one of the most interesting contradictions that you've got little ones at that same point in time that they're talking about aborting and instead, they are now repairing them doing surgery in the womb. Fetal surgery at that same point in time, and many are listeners probably seen that famous picture of the little hand reaching out of the will have my doctors finger little Samuel Thomas. He was about that same age, about 20 weeks after conception and fetal surgeons realize that these are little patients number one and number two, they do need their own anesthesia and pain medicine. Tatian beats the leading textbook on clinical anesthesia points out that yes this little fetus using the medical medical term is capable of having a stress response and feeling pain as early as 18 weeks and then there telling the mother listen to this I will read you just a little couple of sentences here for the tell mom before the surgery.

The tell her you will be given general anesthesia. That anesthesia will put your baby to sleep as well.

But in addition, during this prenatal surgery your unborn baby will be given an injection of pain medication as well as meditation to make sure the baby doesn't move. Now these are their little patients.

They know these little ones feel pain. They know they can go and administer pain medication and anesthesia, and do surgery. Just look like they would a patient who was outside the wall. Dr. Prentice.

Unfortunately, we are out of town for this week, but I want to give an opportunity to let our listeners know how they can learn more about the Charlotte leisure Institute and about the science of fetal pain. Best place to go is to lose your Institute.org right. Let me repeat that website.

It slows your Institute.org and that's LOC as an Zebra I ER Institute.org and please take advantage of that information and learn more about this issue of fetal pain.

It's incredibly important. Dr. Prentice, thank you so much for sharing your insights on HR 36 and the science of fetal pain and for being with us today on family policy matters. We greatly appreciate it thank you trip me up family, matters information and analysis, future of the North Carolina family policy Council join us weekly for discussion on policy issues affecting the family. If you have questions or comments, please contact 919-807-0800 or visit our website and see family.org