Protecting Campus Speech, Part 2

Religion is rooted in prayer to be kicked off campus and try to work within a system that likely is chemically discriminating against religious people. This is family policy with Nancy family Pres. John Weston thank you for joining us.

Our guest today is Robert Shibley, Executive Director of the foundation for individual rights and patient fire continued discussion.

We began last week about ways we can help protect and promote the freedom of speech of students on our college and university campuses will also talk specifically about how North Carolina is doing to protect student speech Robert welcome back to family policy matters like very much for having me UNC Chapel Hill auto back in 2011 bar was involved in the case where a religious student group on campus was investigated for dismissing a student who would no longer adhere to the group's beliefs concerning homosexuality. Tell us a little bit about that case and how it was resolved.

While that was the sole 100 case someone hundred is explicitly Christian a cappella group at UNC Chapel Hill. I don't know if it's still in existence, but it certainly was at the time and at to be part of the group. You had to share this group statement of beliefs, which were a pretty conventional, no set of Christian beliefs, one of which is that you shouldn't have sex outside of heterosexual marriage AA they had a student who was in the group who had come to the group and and and said he believed that and then he came to leadership and said you know what I I'm gay and I can't say that I believe this anymore so you know I have believed they banded a voting to dismiss them from the group barely was a very sad time. Everybody was upset about it mind that you know they felt like they had to. Then he actually changed his mind and say, well actually you know I am gay. I think I can still live this out. So they voted to readmit them to the group and then he will amortize a well actually I don't think I can do it in an ape. They voted to your dismiss him again.

At that point, the University got involved and decided that it was going to investigate someone hundred for discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. We are actually seeing this, then this is an increasing problem across the country and thankfully not so far at UNC Chapel Hill, where colleges are saying that student groups have to accept any student as a member, regardless of whether or not they actually share the beliefs of the group and unfortunately back in 2012 of the Supreme Court actually gave its seal of approval to a form of this with a call all comers, policies, and so we are increasingly seeing Christian groups that the do require belief or membership or leadership kicked off of campuses. I think most prominently the California State University system has or has a rule like that and Vanderbilt I think is actually though, the most prominent school that I kicked off 13 Christian student groups because they wouldn't agree that you know their leaders could have any obliques and they made that stick while being a Tar Heel myself. I was encouraged to hear UNC Chapel Hill has been related to greenlight what is UNC Chapel Hill doing well that other universities in the state can learn from. Well, I think. I mean that the main thing the distinguished UNC Chapel Hill was on. After years and years of going back and forth with buyer about their policies. We actually have had more cases and by fire I will. We say cases, weeds or incidents that come to fire not necessarily legal cases life right but we had more cases with UNC Chapel Hill that would many many other schools that used to be a course of a Christmas tradition for us as a matter of finding two or three years in a row Chapel Hill. What would you know that make make a blunder and we would have to call them on and around the Christmas season, but I yeah II guess the leadership is changed and maybe attitude to change the little bit as well and now you know were really happy that the current people in an office there have come to fire it and decide to work with us instead of you know, running over and over you right up against the Constitution and so that's really a meat fire and we actually employ two full-time attorneys you know from one from an Ivy League school just to work with colleges and universities for free. Of course, to change their policy fires a charity there's a lot of people out there.

There's actually a whole industry of folks who charge a lot of money to try to work on your was the policies we do it for free, and we try to get you compliant with the Constitution and so were always looking for more school to do that I would invite any school years in North Carolina system or or private school to call us up and were happy to work with you. Well in a North Carolina noted a few years ago the Gen. assembly and acted some laws to protect student speech including the passage of the Thompson bill, 719, which clarifies that religious and political student groups at the state public colleges and universities can actually limit their leadership to students who are committed to the group's mission or face how important do you believe legislation like this is to protect student speech oil fire actually believes that the Supreme Court wrongly decided to seal his first Martinez case and before that case came down, we would've said we don't think legislation is necessary. We think that that's a freestanding constitutional right, the right of freedom of association. Unfortunately report doesn't agree with us wheat. We don't believe the right but II think legislation is now really the only alternative to to make certain that that sort of thing is going to happen.

Obviously, you could have schools that make that decision on their own, and I think and many of them still do, but they are gonna continue to come under pressure to change those duties all comers policies and your what's critically objectionable, actually about the all comers policies is that they're actually not all comers policies leave the Supreme Court approved policies is that hey every group has to take every student who wants me involved, regardless of belief regardless of any other characteristic, but almost no school actually has that, for instance. Vanderbilt says it has an all comers policy, but somehow mystifying leave fraternities and sororities are exempted from our other societies. That's not what this report said they didn't say you know we are against all discrimination, unless it's my pretties and sororities against you know people of the opposite gender or sex. So I think those those schools are on pretty thin ground, although I haven't seen you a real challenge that would there have been some challenges to it.

I don't think there's anybody been any definitive and certainly not at the Supreme Court level, but the trend is deftly going in the wrong direction there. I think my recommendation to religious groups is is to prepare to be kicked off campus and prepared to try to work within a system that frankly is systemically discriminating against religious people. You are listening to policy matters a resource to listen to our radio show online enter more resources have a place of persuasion, community website and family largely Robert Farrar also worked with Carolina lawmakers to enact another important law in 2013 that guarantees college students a right to an attorney tell us about that law which I believe may have been the first of its kind in the nation and why that's important. That's right, the student demonstration equality act was passed. A couple years ago to protect students who are being brought in front of those university tribunals. I was talking about whether it be for speech weather before anything else and denied the ability to have any kind of real representation there. Most universities in other states still don't allow a lawyer to participate in these hearings and you might say well it seems like overkill. Why would a student need a lawyer for that and that's actually the argument we hear a lot in opposition to it. But what people really understand is that universities are hearing extremely serious offenses. Obviously the actual assault on campus is a big issue right now campuses are holding great trials. They are handling trial to determine whether or not somebody is sexually assaulted another person and then there claiming that while these are just academic.

These are, you know there's these are just academic sanctions, even though being expelled and declared a rapist and having that put on your transcript or your records pretty much feel your fate if you want to get a more education and and frankly you know a huge variety of jobs. It is a is a career ruin or and yet universities are saying that's not you should have almost no rights when the evolution of the right attorney you have the right not to incriminate yourself.

You don't have the right and in many cases even to question the person who's accusing you all you had to sit there and you're not allowed to tip to poke any holes in their stories.

So North Carolina acted and that the legislature acted to guarantee the right to counsel for students and and while that doesn't solve everything if not a panacea and lease there will be somebody in the room who is a professional who knows what they're doing or least of a chance to get that and to say hey you know what this is isn't a fair trial or you know you're forgetting this particular thing and that's why you know lawyers get a bad rap of their experts and I know trying to figure out how to run a cord and that's of these campuses are doing, they might like to pretend they're not but they are. This is the plagiarism trial is to be a sexual assault trial.

This can be a underage drinking. These are crimes that they're adjudicating and there's also the added complication that in many cases since they are crimes everything they say in front of that tribunal can be introduced in a real court so they effectively been stripped of their for the amendment rights. Well, I know many of our listeners may recall that a few years ago North Carolina was also the focus of my high profile case dealing with academic freedom. This one concerning conservative professor Dr. Mike Adams at UNC Wilmington now. Dr. Adams sued the university from retaliating against him or his political viewpoints that he expressed in columns that he wrote for nonuniversity publications.

He won that case and it received national attention tell us about that, when and what it means for academic freedom on campus not only at UNC Wilmington, but also nationwide. Well Mike Adams's case was really a disgraceful attempts by the University of North Carolina Wilmington administration to get up that didn't do very blatant ideological policing of faculty members next to that case may have started in 2004 directly continued until a couple of years ago because of all the appeals and everything else so Mike Adams didn't actually get finished going through it you have the entire process for I think eight or nine years right now at the sort of thing that can happen.

And the reason it became an issue optically big issue is because of another Supreme Court decision. The night I think is I've had some deleterious effects on eye contact, freedom, and that's called the Garcetti decision, and in that decision, the Supreme Court determined that basically that the, the, as an employer, the government has the right to regulate speech that's not on an issue of public concern.

It is kind of edit it it's it's sort of hard to follow when understand, but the important thing to remember about Garcetti is that they groups like fire, who weighed in on this case in the in the Amicus area so they they went to the Supreme Court while they were deciding it and said you need to worry about these things on the side that this could be a real problem with professors because they're supposed to. Their their state employees but they are supposed to speak out on things that are in their expertise and we expect them to do that we do what Mike Adams was doing so, there is likely a footnote in the Garcetti decision, saying, this may not apply to professors but we don't have the decide that now so were not going to so different circuits are are coming to different conclusions about whether or not these restrictions apply to pressers and not thankfully Mike Adams case is probably the leading case, and it's here the Fourth Circuit, saying that professor the back shouldn't be bound by Garcetti but they did their their speech to be evaluated under another test.

So that's in the BVI.

I think ultimately this probably will go to Supreme Court.

I think Mike Adams case will be an important precedent. That case, Robert. If a student, professional or other staff person on a college or university campus feels that their academic freedom or free speech rights have been infringed upon. What would you recommend that they do visit fires website@thefire.org and submit a case a question there's there's a big button on the website where you can do that. We handle hundreds and hundreds of of cases and questions a year from people all over the place and fire defense not just free-speech and economic freedom, but also due process that's like the right to fair trial type of thing.

Religious liberty Naaman friend freedom of conscience more generally. And so if anybody if students or faculty have questions, please visit the fire.org know we may have answers for you on the website and if not, please submit a case or question to us and will will try to help a great week listeners to take advantage of that. If this is an issue that's of concern to you. Again, that website is the fire.org again the fire.org and if you visit that website. You can also review the report we've been talking about on Fars ranking of colleges and universities all across the country and specifically North Carolina and without Robert Sibley.

I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to be with us as we go on family policy matters to talk about academic freedom on college campuses and for your important work defending free speech rights for students, professors and other staff on campuses nationwide. Thank you for having me before we close.

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