HB2 Still A Common Sense Law, Despite Continued Misinformation

Took want to okay this is the interview with jury Royal about House Bill two. Thanks for joining us this week for family policy matters today were going to be speaking with a special member of our staff jury Royal, who serves as counsel and director of community impact for intrafamily clearly one of the hottest topics in North Carolina over the last year has been the passage of House Bill two or North Carolina's bathroom privacy and safety law. Jury serves as one of our registered lobbyist and spends a great deal of time at the North Carolina Gen. assembly working with state lawmakers and seeking to inform and educate them about issues that are important to families across our state and the impact that those issues will have on families.

Since the state legislature came back into session on January 25 and House Bill two remains a hot topic of discussion. We thought it would be particularly helpful to revisit this bill and discuss what it actually does.

There is been so much information circulated about House Bill two and so many misconceptions out there in the public so we thought it would be great to take this so we thought it would be helpful to take an opportunity to clear the air about some of the myths and misconceptions surrounding this very common sense, an important piece of legislation a jury. Welcome back to family policy matters. It's always great to have you on the show. Thank you John were together well.

It is a pleasure to work together, jury, and we really appreciate very much your commitment to speaking on behalf of families and family values at the general assembly you spend countless hours down there meeting with lawmakers in developing relationships with them, which really provides the opportunity to enter into discussions about important legislation like House Bill two jury as we get started. What we talk a little bit about the history of House Bill two events transport what events transpired that led to the consideration in the passage of House Bill two in March 2016.

Last year in February that Charlotte city Council made some changes in their ordinances into significant areas of one is in. This is the part that most people are have heard about are most familiar with in the area of privacy and safety as it relates to public restrooms, locker rooms and showers. They had had a provision in their ordinances for 30 years that had recognize that it was important to make distinctions in those areas of privacy and safety as it related to people making decisions about how policy applied to restrooms, locker rooms and shower rooms that those would be designated based on biological sex. That was an exception that was made in the nondiscrimination policy, realizing that this was an important distinction to make. As far as protecting the privacy and safety of citizens so that ordinance essentially said, and as you said it was and had been in place for 30 years in the city of Charlotte in that ordinance essentially said if men or women need to use a restroom or go to a shower or bath house. There was a public facility that men would simply go to the men's room and women would go to the women's room and it was perfectly fine and actually the standard understood standard for that to to be the case in the city of Charlotte and that's what they sought to essentially repeal in the set of ordinance changes that the Charlotte city Council passed in February correct that is correct in that the change would have allowed people to choose which facilities these based on how they identified not their biological sex but which six they identified with so essentially a man who identified as a woman could then enter into the woman's bathroom or shower locker room or changing facility and under that new ordinance that the Charlotte city Council adopted. That would be perfectly fine. That is correct that that's what that change would have done and that's why the legislature saw this is an important area for them to address. In addition to that there was a another major change that was made in their ordinances which related to the nondiscrimination laws as they apply to commercial activity in the city of Charlotte weather was people doing business within the city or people doing business from outside Charlotte with the city of Charlotte that they would have been required to add sexual orientation and gender identity as protected classes. In addition to the classes that had been recognized for many years under state and federal law, such as race, color or national origin, and religion and insects as it was understood to plot a biological sex. But this change would have created the problem that were seen across our country where when these sexual orientation and gender identity protections are added as protected classes.

There is a conflict with the religious freedom of religious liberty of citizens and this is where we've seen lawsuits or actions brought by governments against bakers and forest and photographers and videographers and other folks, particularly those associated with the wedding industry and so this would have invited all of these types of of issues into North Carolina were fortunate enough that we haven't had the so-called so G or sexual orientation and gender identity laws or ordinances in our state, but this would have been the the. This would have created the beginning essentially of what we've seen in many of these other municipalities across the country correct Dennis Ackley jury also one of the major catalyst for House Bill two was a conflict that was created by the actions of the Charlotte city Council when compared to North Carolina's long-standing governance doctrine which is referred to as Dillon's rule out what is Dillon's rule that that doctrine and how does it apply in this case. Will this is a legal principle that supplied by over 30 states which means that within those states, local governments only have the authority that's been given to them by the state constitution and the state legislature and that really is an overriding principle that really when you apply it to the situation Charlotte if it if you just stepped back and said what do we need to do it would be just apply this principle and say Charlotte did not have the authority to pass the ordinances which they had passed back in February 2016 and in then really that's part of what the legislature ended up saying, but this is the underlying principle in the action that was taken by the legislature and I think that's a really important thing for listeners to understand and this is something that's really not been discussed that much when it comes to what we've heard about House Bill two is that there has been this long-standing principle in North Carolina that city and county governments are essentially a subset of the state government initially said they derive all of their authority either from the Constitution or acts that are passed specifically giving them authority from the North Carolina Gen. assembly, and so for a city or county to go off. Some people may refer to it to to go rogue. In essence, and start passing ordinances and laws that conflict or that that departs significantly from state law is a violation of this Dylan rule, principle, and I think that's what we saw it and that's exactly what we saw in North Carolina and that's part of what the legislature recognized in their need to pass House Bill two jury when the Gen. assembly came in the special session in March 2016.

Following the actions by the Charlotte city Council really with an intent to reign in the Charlotte city Council from going far afield of the authority that they had all our lawmakers passed House Bill two. What exactly does house bill to do as I said it. Let me start that again jury when the Gen. assembly came back into special session in March 2016 in order to reign in the actions of the Charlotte city Council they passed House Bill two. What exactly does house bill to do. There are three sections for house bill to the first section deals with what we mentioned at the beginning of our conversation is the bathroom restroom locker room policy and they established really a statewide privacy and safety law which which really just codified existing state policy. What they did and that was for all public schools and government agencies. They set a policy for in the way the sections entitled is single-sex. Multiple occupancy bathrooms and changing facilities. It meant that for multiple occupancy facilities. Those could only be occupied by people of the same biological sex that they did make provision in their that section of the law where accommodations could be made by providing single occupancy facilities say they were being sensitive to the fact that there were concerns that some people head, but they also wanted to make sure that the privacy and safety of our citizens was being protected under our state law and that that local law could not override that.

So if you had a circumstance where you have a student in a school or an individual who works for the government or something like that or it just a member of the public who went to a public facility and yet they had some misgivings about going into the bathroom or shower. The coordinated with their biological sex that this actually does allow for accommodation to be made for them to use a single stall facility.

For example, before their private functions that and that's something that I think was was glossed over in much of the media coverage of this legislation that suggested that there was no accommodation made, but there actually was and so there was some flexibility provided in this but it did set the statewide standard that in public. Individuals would use the bathroom shower locker room or changing facility that associated with their biological sex that is correct.

Nat also just as a point of clarification.

This law does not affect the ability of private businesses and on profit corporations to set their own policy about these questions right this judge. This relates to public facilities say, like in our school systems are in government buildings. Great what I think that's an important distinction because we heard from some in the business community that this bill was created so many problems and you know some business executives suggested boycotts are not expanding their business opportunities in the states, but this bill does not impact the ability that they have to adopt internal policies relating to bathroom usage that is correct what what type continue on with the explanation of the bill. Okay the other sections look really at the commercial impact of the ordinance. It was passed by Charlotte and again this this relates to nondiscrimination law, which up to that point had been the same as our state and federal laws. But what Charlotte was good and in the state needed to address was the fact that our state is the governing authority. He determines what happens on the state level and looks out for the general welfare of the people.

In part two of the law is entitled statewide consistency and laws related to employment and contracting and what would would've happened under the changes in Charlotte is local governments could be making requirements again on commercial activity within their area of authority that affected wages and hours.

As far as what people's policy could be within their private companies and what this pointed out through this provision of the law was to clarify that these are state policies that are determined on a statewide level that governments are allowed to make their own policies for their own employees but went when they start making decisions that infect affect commerce across the state. That's where the legislature needed to come in and clarify that that was outside the authority of local governments very good, and it also in a subsequent section of the bill dealt with public accommodations which are basically on according to the ordinances that were in place in Charlotte would essentially have applied to any business Association, nonprofit, and even churches and church related schools as we could tell that basically said they would have to also conform to the same policies in the same definition of adoption of sexual orientation and gender identity, and open bathrooms, or else they could be subject to penalties and things of that nature.

Correct. That is correct so that was one of the measures that house bill to salt to reign in and basically say that the city of Charlotte and and frankly, for that matter other cities and counties across the state did not have the authority to adopt now with the state legislature saw fit to adopt a statewide policy doing that thing doing that same thing that it was within the purview of the state legislature, but it was not within the purview of any city or county to adopt the Charlotte style ordinances. That's correct, will anything else on the jury that house bill to does really hurt so much of the health and there was one other provision that was in the original law that actually has been removed and that related to lawsuits that were brought for wrongful discharge from employment and what had initially been part of the law was a provision that said that those causes of action could only be brought under federal law that could be brought in state or federal court under federal law, but it was it would have eliminated the state law cause of action they did legislature later in 2016 reversed or repeal that section of the law and part of the. The rationale when they when they put that provision in there when they discussed it in the original debate was that there actually more remedies under federal law, but people pointed out that they still thought it was important that the state cause of action state law cause of action still be part of the remedies that were available, and so the legislature chose to put that provision back into the law, but the rest of house bill two has stayed in place.

According to much of what we've heard and especially seen and heard and read in the media. North Carolina must've gone very far afield hope when they passed House Bill to talk about that for just a minute, was that the adoption of house bill to some far out action taken by the Gen. assembly, or was it actually in line with what we see in other states, very much actually in line with what we see across the country is in fact North Carolina is one of 28 states that basically have the same laws as it relates to nondiscrimination laws is, again, as mentioned earlier, areas like race, color, religion, national origin and sex and with understanding that that is biological sex.

All 20 those 28 states as well as the federal government in their statutes do not include sexual orientation and gender identity is protected classes. So North Carolina is a very much in line with more than a majority of the states as well as with our federal statutes.

One of the claimants been made to jury by opponents of house bill two is the portrayal of the notion that this bill has had disastrous effects on North Carolina's economy. Are these claims justified not at all.

And we actually as recently as November, there were two and that was a course months after house bill two was passed really more than six months afterwards. Did you see national ratings putting North Carolina right up at the top is as far as it relates to doing business. A place to do business in place to live in our country forms and magazine and site selection magazine.

Both rated North Carolina is number two in the nation for places to do business are the best business climate as far as best places to live. There is again the end of the year there were national ratings that put a number of our cities of five of our cities in the top 103 in the top 15 in the United States and our economy continues to be one of the fastest growing in our country.

The number of people employed has increased dramatically. The unemployment has decreased all these indicators show that North Carolina economically and just as far as a place for people to live is right up at the very top. Well, that's great information here and we seen that repeatedly in recent years that North Carolina just has a booming economy and is as some politicians like to say we are definitely open for business and we are but all of these reports show that North Carolina is doing great that these national organizations and news and media outlets and others who look at these ratings and the criteria to go into these ratings on an ongoing basis.

Continue to cite North Carolina as one of the top states in the nation for business. The top student. The top states in the nation to live in a natural thing. So that really debunks a lot of these false claims that are being made about the impact her so-called impacted house bill two has had on our state. Now Jerry, we are just about out of town for this week. But before we depart I want to give you an opportunity just to let our listeners know what what you see is the future of house bill two in the current session of the Gen. assembly, it still remains very much a hot topic what you anticipate is going to happen with house bill to the session which hard to know what is going to happen this year there was an effort at the end of last year with some of the leadership in the legislature tried to see if if there was a way to actually repeal house bill to but there were number factors that kept that effort from moving ahead and in one of those was the fact that when part of the agreement was gonna be that Charlotte would totally repeal the provisions that they had passed in February and then that the legislature would come back in and repeal house bill to what Charlotte did on a Monday in December was to only repeal part of their ordinance that is been passed in February, in the actually added a provision saying that once the legislature repealed house bill to. They then said they would have the authority to come back and pass similar provisions so that naturally created a lot of unrest among the legislators of the Charlotte city Council did come back a few days later and repealed what they had written on that Monday. This was on Wednesday they came back and said weird and repeal what we we passed on Monday and repeal they did with one sentence which was very clear repealed with a past in February, but at that point. People already were very wary of what might happen because Charlotte actually put in writing that they may, they saw themselves as really having the authority to come back and do what had caused all this controversy a year ago so there is just a lot of uncertainty about where things might go in this upcoming session well and I was one of the things that we had explained the legislators in this process that there was some discussion about it and some folks use the term reset to go back to a reset to where the Charlotte city Council would repeal their ordinances and then legislature would come back in and repeal house bill two and it would put us back to square one.

But we communicated to lawmakers that it was impossible to come back to square one. Because of all that it happened with house bill to and also the reality is you said that the city of Charlotte even kind of showed their hand as to what their intentions were that if the Gen. assembly, and when the Gen. assembly repealed house bill to enfold. Did they would simply come back behind that and reenact the ordinances that that they had put in place last February and then we we have seen other cities like the city of Durham or that or the Durham that the city or county and not sure country indicated that the number local governments across the state more than you and I can record and so in then and then we also solve the we saw Durham say that they work poised to enact a very similar ordinance changes to what Charlotte did and we certainly suspect that there were other cities and/or counties around the state.

That would look at doing the same thing and so it was very clear that if the Gen. assembly repealed house bill to that there was nothing to keep cities and counties from adopting the Charlotte like ordinances and doing exactly what the city of Charlotte had done so, what was the general assembly going to do after that when they come back and pass another house bill to probably not because of all the controversy that surrounded it.

So there really was no way to go back to a so-called reset before all of this activity transpired in the the winter of last year and so we just continue to encourage our lawmakers to stand firm on house bill to when the governor called the special session I near the end of December.

The week before Christmas to look at this repealed the both the House and Senate Republican caucuses clearly did not have the votes within their caucus to favor a repeal of house bill two, and so they adjourned that special session, taking no action on house bill to which we were grateful for, but I think it still shows the commitment that a lot of legislators in the Gen. assembly have toward standing firm on house bill to correct exact jury what can citizens who are interested in house bill to who feel that it's an important measure to keep in place the things that you talked about the bathroom. Privacy and safety measures. The other measures that are consistent with the Dillons rule doctrine that cities and counties only derive the the authority that they have from the general assembly and from the Constitution and that it's really our state lawmakers who have the proper role of making decisions about these antidiscrimination laws in North Carolina and that it's proper for them to rein in city and county governments if they go to for what can citizens do if they are interested in and continue to be concerned about the legislature considering bills that would repeal house bill to will on our website@ncfamily.org you can see a lot of the history of house bill to in the search box they are on our website. If you just put in HB two it'll pull up all the publications that we have produced relating to house bill two.

As far as actually getting involved in responding. We also on our website. If you click on get involved in then it has take action with you. You can click on they are in a will take you to a section where there's information about house bill to and specifically how you can contact your members of the North Carolina House and Senate through email and also as we mentioned previously it in addition to emails. It's great to be in touch with them on even more personal level through phone calls or even a personal visit. Let's great and I would just encourage our listeners.

If this is an issue that is of interest and concern to you that you do take action on.

Even if you contacted your legislators before. Now is the time to do it again as they come back into session and as they are revisiting this issue in hearing about it.

Discussed within the halls of the Gen. assembly, and especially the new members of the legislature who have not have the privilege of dealing with this issue over the last year. I think it's important for them to understand where citizens within their districts are coming from as it relates to this issue and others so as we always do. We want to encourage citizens to be active and engaged to reach out to your lawmakers and know that it really does make a difference when you do that I is important for them for these state lawmakers to hear from folks back home and they really do consider what folks back home.

Had to say it is. It's always important that as we have seen because this issue has gone on for so long. This is an very important part of the life of our state think that we all need to communicate with each other about what we think is best for our citizens well and Jerry and that like to. I think it's important to recognize the role that North Carolina has nationally in this we have really been the focal point of a lot of the discussion and debate around privacy and safety legislation like house bill to you as well as the other provisions that are contained in the bill and a lot of states continue to look to North Carolina as a leader and an example in this area and it is so important for our legislators to stand firm to continue to defend this law because it does set a standard for other states across the nation. Unfortunately with the new year upon us and legislatures going into session across the country. We have seen a number of state legislatures in a number of other states take up legislation like this and so they they understand how critically important it is to protect the privacy and safety of women and children in public facilities like bathroom showers, locker rooms and changing facilities and have sought to pursue legislation similar to house bill to and without jury I just want to say thank you so much and without jury role, I want to just thank you so much for your continued commitment to that the and without jury role, I want to thank you so much for your continued great work on behalf of families and family values in the North Carolina Gen. assembly and otherwise through your work here at the North Carolina family policy Council and just want to encourage our listeners to to reach out and contact your lawmakers about this and other important matters is the Gen. assembly gets cranked up for the 2017 legislative session. You welcome John and again it's a blessing to work together with you and other citizens across the state. Great. Hey Jake, I'm not adding one more plug for our magazine to you might select this and after Jerry's portion on some of the other resources on our website or jury also like to mention that we do have a special edition of our flagship publication family North Carolina magazine that is dedicated to straightening out a lot of these miss our perceptions about house bill two. It's a great resource. It kind of approaches the house bill to issue from a variety of different perspectives and the feedback that we continue to get on that publication. In particular, is just is very very strong people find it to be very very helpful to understand all of the dynamics that are at play on this very important issue. So I do want to encourage our listeners if they don't have a copy of that addition of family North Carolina magazine to go to our website and go to the magazine page and you can download a copy of the entire magazine addition there or you can read those individual articles online and that can be found@ncfamily.org again that's NC family.org okay thanks