Jackie Hill Perry: Holier Than Thou

God is holy cannot sin God cannot sin, that means he cannot sin against me and God cannot sin against me. Doesn't that make him the most trustworthy being that exists. Welcome to family life and relationships that matter most men will think I'm Dave Wilson and you can find us@familylifetoday.com or on the family family life today so over three years ago we walked in for our first day ever. A family life today.

Remember, the studio is dark. No way was there yet. We got on her knees and begged God to help us guide me this produce great content that would change marriages and families legacies all around the world and we did that because I felt so ill-equipped and we needed God to do a meter call hello yeah but I remember that day because our very first interview list with Jackie help Harry that she's back yes or maybe think of this is like 3/2 years ago you were with us in Little Rock. Now you're with us in Orlando, but your back on family today welcome. Thanks you final remember that I do you remember about anything that it felt like I was looking at Austin your son to different places.

I like is the strangest thing in the world to see let you know his eyes in his mouth and his ears, split apart really yeah I know I look like my son. Yeah, this is about happy like happy like Austin.

Austin will never see also met in my life. He is the most precious man I think I've ever known. I mean, he's like, without guile, you know, there is a joy about a joke there were times of high scores are us just go sin. Once you just so perfect.

He was just such a great analysis.

The husband and dad. He's an amazing man is Ottoman to the reason Jackie tell listeners what you know Austin.

Austin is my book agent and he has been nothing since maybe six years, five, six years now.

That's a pretty incredible relationship because he's our agent as well. I think he's more proud of you and your agent is, but he's good at what he did.

Did you know when you are back three years ago. You just written gay girl good guy and we had you on one of the reasons I just brought that up as we were.

We were sort of terrified of you doing this and then you are the first guess we had. It was like oh my goodness you are remarkable how special and I do remember I prayed over you because I thought this woman carries incredible gifting power your theologian that you're so articulate and artistic. I just thought It brings tears to my eyes. Now I thought she's a world teacher and I think your changing people's thoughts and minds about God and you've done this with the your newest book to yeah you talk about theologian your depth is inspiring. So here we are with the a book which is full of theology holier than thou how God's holiness helps us trust him. So you go from gay girl good guy this it seems like a leap. So why this book why now is not really yeah I think the way it's presented is different. So one day grow good gods and men more. This is more like you know the theological work about a theological concept, but the aim is the same, which is to exalt God. I think in both books. I spent a lot of time in showing God to be as beautiful as he really is and so I think for me to grow. Good guy was like okay this is my story and this is the God who made it here is that God inside discounters want to write books about God rest my life. I remember interviewing you about your story, your memoir and there is so much of it about this tactic is holy and when you encounter a holy God. It will change you. I think a lot of our listeners know your story, but we can't go back and to share that briefly and how that encounter with God shaped you love who he really is yeah raised to single mom deal with same-sex or had same-sex desires as early as I can remember. While at same time, attending church here near so I have some type of idea that God exists that Jesus died all those things but I was unwilling to serve Jesus one. It seemed uninteresting and born to a Christianity was, you know these, joyless, rigid, dogmatic people say thing here until I was 19. God met me power the Holy Spirit.

I was able to see them. Austin was worthless. The guy was wordy and I turned in and I think the interesting thing is that in my repentance.

It really was opening up my mind to the reality of God in a hollow Corinthian says like the enemy has blinded the minds of unbelievers when they cannot see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But God, who said, let there be light, as shown in our hearts to give this light sows like this all. Not only are you real Richard good and so in my turning toward you in faith I'm turning towards a really good person and so I think that's really the emphasis of holiness is to remind us that holiness isn't simply that God hates sin, but that God is intrinsically good and I think if we presented that I think in our gospel presentations and even in the way we live.

Live and talk about God's people would be much more interested in Jesus.

Yeah, and that's an interesting perspective because I grew up in church, but I really just sort of drag there as a got college never went again and many same reasons that there's no joy there is no purpose or I just didn't. I never saw anything there. I like but I do remember the preacher saying God is holy and that scared me. It did make draw me toward thing as beautiful. It scared me as fearful that I don't want to be near him because he's just going to smite me so your perspectives are wholly different. I think perspective on God is good yeah because judgment is a part of it. You know God is holy. Therefore, he has a moral standard he's given us a law that he expects us and commands us to obey and if we don't obey it. There's consequences but I think when you think about the fact that God has given us a moral law that it is an extension of himself. So if you if you look at the commandments, you know, thou shalt not kill, thou shall not lie. Thou shall not commit adultery. God is saying don't lie because he's honest God is saying don't commit adultery because he's always faithful God is saying, don't steal because he's generous. Even the moral law gives us a beautiful picture of the nature of God, you always have that. It was a sum that they like to operate there never thought about all that's what I mean. It's like all of hers. Thou shall not, I've never considered that's a beautiful revelation of his character. Did you always understand here's the thing I've studied the Bible and study the Bible were amazing Bible scholar. I'm kidding, but I don't think I've ever had that sort of revelation come to me like oh there's the other side of this. This is something I want to be drawn to what I think that line of thought was a note somewhere. Paul says that the law is good right because God is in.

Then I was reading this book by Stephen char knock which is called the likely existence of God or some like that wrote written in 1800s and problem. The books were read, and he said the law is good because the lawmakers good and I got me thinking all. How does the 10 Commandments show. God is good and so I started to think what if God was the opposite of what he's commanding if he was opposite of it. He would be the devil he would be a liar. He will be adulterer, he would be a thief all the things that we end up in our unbelief, believing God is incapable of you know is like all God is saying surrender and give me all your stuff. Give you that he wants my body wants my life. He wants my marriage is like know he wants it for good, though, because he's a good God inside. I just go it will free us up to imagine God as he really is one of the things I've always set as a preacher for 30 years affecting the quiz and radios. You know, my wife sat through all these hundreds, Henry hundreds of maybe thousand probably 30 or 40 a year for 30 or so. Yeah you're around the thousand so I said this many times. I bet you nobody my church can answer this question, but my wife every owner you know pressure and I'm not saying a right or wrong, but I said this many times.

There are two beliefs that determine every decision you make, every single day. That was my sort of exaggeration, but there's two beliefs that we carry that. I believe every decision we make every day is determined by those to what other what you believe about God look at you theology and what you believe about yourself identity there you go you like look at some notes. Or so I need said that so many time you like that you don't often write but as I thought about it I thought, man, what we believe about God, which is theology who is Izzy present Izzy absent. What's his character wonders, attributes, and then what we believe about who we are, partly as a dad was like saying to my sons like every decision you make today is gonna be based on you believe is here and he's with you. You believe your worthier worthless. I was that's true or not but when you talk about the holiness of God, you are stating that if I believe he is holy is to change the way you behave right, absolutely. I think that's the truth. Literally one story that intrigues me is the story the rich young ruler, and how Jesus comes to Jesus and says good teacher that's already interesting because he's calling him a good teacher, which is cool but is he just that and so he says hey, how could I you know inherit eternal life. Jesus is like, you know, gives him the law.

He's talking about those that I was a kid and Jesus are all okay so leave everything you have a follow me and us is that the rich young ruler walked away sad because he had many possessions and I looked at that Texan. I wondered if he only thought that Jesus was a good teacher and not also a good God. No wonder he didn't leave all his stuff is like man. If you see that God is bigger and better than everything you have been that will govern how you behave. Because now you realize I'm giving up all this stuff, but I'm gaining everything which is what Paul says, like all that stuff is trash compared to what I get in God we had to believe God was wordy and better than everything he gave up so absolutely every everything you believe about God will determine how you live this life which is so interesting because I mean working with Detroit Lions wives for 35 years and so often I would. Is there anything keeping you from giving God everything and what are the things that are hard for you to let go of like the rich young ruler. It was his possession and so when I asked that most the mom said I'm so fearful because I'm afraid if I give God my children because that's the thing that they hold the dearest and closest God will do something bad. Now, what would you say they're sitting your Bible study.

This is a little bit of pure book of what you're saying that misconception of who God is the I would empathize, but I would warn in this would be the warning is that I think sometimes we we really don't realize how much spiritual warfare is active in our conception of God, because why would the devil and his demons want you to hope the best in God. What is it that were believing about the nature of God that we suppose that to surrender his creation back to him is a bad thing when you think horse and so I think that's allowed to say is like resist that resist that that spirit that would accuse God in your mind and you know it, but I would also say let's look at the Scriptures and let's look at what he does and how he is and how he moves even the fact that he sent even his own son for our good. Everything he does is good doesn't mean that everything that he does isn't hard and difficult, but it does mean that he does not have sinful aims and sinful motives in his dealings with us.

That's only Satan or things you say to begin the book and I don't need to read it because I'm I'm sure you can say from memory, but it was a profound understanding for me. I'll just starting premise only yeah well I don't know if it's your premise but you said of God is holy, then he can't sin go ahead and flesh that out because that change the way you think about God's holiness is God's holy cannot sin God cannot sin, that means he cannot sin against me and of God cannot sin against me. Doesn't that make him the most trustworthy being that exists that is like paradigm shifting me to think about my relationships with people I don't I don't trust people easily right and that's because were inconsistent were unfaithful we live. Sometimes we were greedy we don't trust people because people are sinful. But when you get to God. The question has to be okay if God can't sin, what is the reason I don't trust him. If he doesn't even have it in his nature to do wrong.

If all he can do is be right be righteous, be kind, be wise, be perfect in all of his dealings with his creation, and I have no excuse but to trust him and that just kind of changed my life does me no perfect but it does mean I'm much more will willing to trust God more than I did. So what is it in us that doesn't believe this statement because I think a lot of time that it is our sin nature, but it's like I'm a member want our youngest son Austin's younger brother was preaching one time and he said something to this effect. Jesus is enough. But I don't know him well enough for him to be enough. It was a statement like I know always enough but I don't think I really know him enough to be on the go. I can fully trust is that the problem was like we don't really know yet. Will you have a better answer. You think that's true. I mean because there's always going to be more of him to know.

But life is like were fighting against our nature, we inherited Adam's sin, but also Adams logic and reasoning. We exist in this world are culture forms's to be skeptical of God, but were also busy working. So with our families and all the things and how to pay bills and how to stop, you know, get mad at my spouse believe the milk out on the counter and is always so much that distracts us from even the ability to meditate on God's truth, which I think informs how we trust even that right there, and I'm thinking of as I'm listening to you think of me leaving milk on the cannot, not thinking that I you Jackie with four kids yet three girls and little boy, this two-month and I'm thinking our listeners could be wondering like you have time to study how are you having time to go deep into reading books by some dude in the 1800s.

Great book.

What would you say to them, and I feel like for you it's in the city out of your not only do you need it, but you love him when you love someone, you spend time with and I'm scared of myself as a part of it is that I know who I can be apart from God, and that scares me because I want to be that person. And so being in my word, and praying looks different than it did when I was 20. A single NS.

Okay, you know, because there's all kinds of opportunities to meet with God, let you know all of a single be able to be on top of Mount Sinai for 45 minutes watching got right is low on the tablet, but we do have time and car to listen to the word we are washing dishes to listen to a podcast about the word we do. You know, brush our teeth, where we don't have to be on the phone so we can send up a prayer to so there's a lot of little moments when we can meet with God, and I think God even appreciates that.

That's what I would say to feel like especially for me as a mom.

That was my time that I learned how to do God every day every minute that I learned to walk with him in the smaller and the bigger parts of my life. I didn't have that 45 minutes at the time I was like dreading like I wish I had 45 units and I was jealous that Dave might have 45 that there is the sweetness of learning how to communicate with God all day long through everything, even praying out loud with our kids wherever we are in the house and car in the school pickup line, whatever that looks like, and I do think we want to be on Mount Sinai and I just read it to go to the one your Bible. So a few weeks ago, Marina, and the contrast of what's happening on the mountain. God knows what's happening down in the valley build the idol. I thought we live down here so often were build my idols are going other stuff we know is holy. We just don't embrace it and then our life is sort of like the valley were in chaos is untrue.

I think so. I think that's the thing about sanctification is that all of this takes time as you get older you do have time to be on Mount Sinai for 45 minutes again even be up there two hours and it's pretty amazing, but I think what often happens is the beauty of the world captures us in the beauty of God eludes us. Maybe exaggerating but it feels like things that are shining around me grab my attention. And God seems sometimes distant you is so holy he's unknowable and attainable and I just run after some that's more immediate than I think so because I transcended, I think even in Exodus 32 when they were making the golden calf. I think a part of the reason they did. It is because it was quick and convenient, you know, as those like hey Moses up there God been about 40 days for nights. Now I don't know where Moses is, therefore I don't know where God is this, I think even armed patients leads us to make idols because we just we don't want to wait for God to reveal himself through the text is like Psalms it's boring you you that you don't want to wrestle with it because is not quick enough for you know you being tempted with lust and so instead of waiting for God to give you the power to endure. You go to porn like it's all of these quick satisfactions which no satisfied all I could sit on what you said there when you said it scares me who I would be without God would be a great dinner conversation with yourself that your kids may not tell you if there teenagers but who would I be or what are the things I run after when I feel like God's been up there too long and he hasn't been down here with me or really I'm down here. I haven't been with him know what are the things that my appetite starts to yearn for that would be a great question have with your spouse. Where do you go when you haven't been with God for well as a mom I can remember realizing I had that same fear. Jackie like cats so impatient with my kids. I started yelling all the time.

Well, even when I was a Jesus. I would yell something that I will. That's real prayer, but there is something that I am afraid to like. I go back to things that I used to pray for before the don't bring me life that I'll chase after him. Think that's true for you golf course. I mean yeah everything Jackie just said about the immediate adrenaline rush of whatever you put in the blank for your idol is the rush that often you don't get or feel with the holiness of God.

That's what I think is so elusive and not my last question you.

Jack would be okay.

So if there's a listener's and they're going I don't think I understand the holiness of God.

I want to. How do I okay well that's probably well maybe the most important question we could ever ask that Steven and Wilson with Jackie Hill Perry on family life to a and will hear her answer in just a second.

But first, as we ask questions like these, it really reveals the true longings of our hearts, because, as the famous St. Augustine saying goes, our hearts are ever restless till they find rest in him. We really believe that here at family life relationship with God is the ultimate desire that sits at the center of every human being when you partner with us to make every home a godly home, you're literally advancing the work of taking the gospel to homes across the world.

Would you consider partnering with us at family life to see that gospel work come to fruition. When you do, we'd love to send you a copy of Jackie's book holier than thou. It's our thanks to you when you partner financially today with us you can give online@familylife.com or by calling 800-358-6329, 800 F's and family LS in life, and then the word today I hears Jackie on how we can begin to better understand the holiness of God, pray and ask God to help you understand.

I think that's one way to ask for wisdom which God said you answer that prayer and then get in your word and in one of the practices that I started to do early on in my walk because of discipleship was when I would read a narrative or an epistle or Psalm. I would be strategic about paying attention to the way God is described in it. So if it's a song where David is crying out to God. How does he describe God. He says he's a strong tower. He's that he's a refugees or rock so need to now say all so God is a rock God is a refuge. God is steadfast God is this, and I think as you kinda develop a practice of that. While reading your word and believing it. That's how you start to understand who God is and therefore understand that Steven and Wilson with Jackie Hill Perry on family life today same person at church. As you are at home. That's an interesting question well on family today with David and Wilson Jackie Hill Perry will be talking to us and giving us insight on how to make sure we are living biblically in both her private and public lives on behalf of Damien Wilson. I'm Shelby Abbott will see you back next time for another edition of family life today. FamilyLife today is a production of family life accrued ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most