Carolina Journal Radio No. 711: Year-end edition reviews interesting 2016 topics

From Cherokee to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Muskoka as we turn the calendar pages from 2016 to 2017. We look back at some of the most interesting topics Carolina Journal radio has tackled during the past year free speech is faced a number of challenges in recent years on college campuses, which up with a higher education watchdog. He shares his concerns about recent trends in His free speech. One of the most pervasive public policy arguments involves the minimum wage bill or my one of North Carolina's veteran political observers opposes plans to boost that government mandated wage.

If you've never heard of an EMP attack.

You'll want to hear our conversation with a national defense expert explains why an electromagnetic pulse could prove catastrophic plus will talk about efforts to fight over criminalization in North Carolina. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline higher incomes, better healthcare safer neighborhoods. Virtually all of us would like to see those goals achieved. Of course, but while we may want the same things conservatives and libertarians and progressives go about getting there in very very different ways. The John Locke foundation's Dr. Roy Coronado has been looking at the unifying themes of progressivism joins me now to talk about that right. Welcome back to the program and be back on what is progressivism on the word itself sounds pretty forward thinking yeah well in recent years, so liberals have been wanting to use the word progressive instead of liberal and I think that's a great idea because they really do harking back to the progressive movement of the early early 20th century. All I don't like them using the word liberal because the root of the word liberal liberty which I I like you would be a classic liberal yes as liberal as it use it right so I actually prefer to call them what they want to be called which is progressive because it recognizes their history, which is in the early 20th century.

It was a history of of basically using the state to control the economy. It was, it gave us the ideas that ultimately led to Hitler and and Mussolini and fascism so I think it's it's it's good for them to use that word and what I argue in this paper is at the root of the book coheres all of that together is the use of coercion and force through the state to achieve goals. How so well if you think of modern-day progressives, tends to be the case that that they want the things that the rest of us want to write better healthcare safer streets and so on and so on. But I think what makes it different is libertarians, conservatives, people like myself.

We search for ways to accomplish those goals that are consistent with liberty that keeps people free and that frees markets where there unifying theme is they always go for a solution that involves government coercion on the matter what the case is this a really hard to find an example where they embrace a solution that does not involve government coercion and when they do they usually are considered to going off the reservation right to be acting conservative or libertarian in that position. So I what I argue in this paper is a people generally recognize is the unifying theme of progressivism is not what they want to accomplish.

We all want to accomplish good things and I'm not going to impugn the motives, but it's how we want to accomplish.

Is it fair to say Roy that the unifying theme there is using government to force people or business people are in individuals to do things they may not want to do and should have the choice to choose yes or no and that's what I mean by coercion telling people what to do through with their property and with themselves and and preventing people from pursuing life, liberty and happiness that sounds familiar. Let's talk about how this manifests itself in some particular instances of policy you writing your paper that minimum wage mandates are great example of this explain well what we all want lower income people have higher wages right. Certainly I do. So we don't differ on that goal right so.

But when they see a problem like that. They say well your people should have a living wage. They make these arguments that this is $7.25 a current minimum wage. This is just too low for anyone to make it by on and so there there solution as well just force employers to pay more and if and if you don't you get heavily fined or or or go to jail.

Even if you refuse to pay the fines where someone like myself libertarian economists would say look, there are ways consistent with freedom to accomplish the same goal and that is not harmful because minimum wage and prevents people from working if you're not worth minimum wage. You don't get employed so there are ways consistent with voluntarism to get people to to to earn more money, better education and apprenticeship programs I mention they are actually US, but after higher pay exemption from Social Security right that doesn't affect the market allows them to keep more of of what they earn. So or or an employer can voluntarily choose to pay what ever hourly wage.

They wanted to if they felt it was worth it to them. We have course so that the ideas to make the employee worth more.

So the employer wants to pay them more or in fact must pay, the more he never wants to pay the more but if an employee is worth more. That means yes other options. He can, if employer is in pain as much as he's actually worth in the marketplace. Go on, get a job somewhere else. Someone who is willing to pay.

So, look no employer wants to pay more than he has to 4400 worker or for anything else for that matter, but it's the it's marketplace in competition you wanted what you want to do is make workers more competitive in the marketplace and you don't do that through force by saying well you have to be be paid more.

Well it's really you have to be paid more or nothing at all, which is the choice that employee employer faces. You also write that were seen in the progressive approach in Obama care sure. Another great example of we all want. Everyone will want there to be more people insured right we want better healthcare and so on.

But when they look at a problem like well there's not enough people who are getting health insurance. What do they what's there solution while let's have a loss as everyone has to be health insurance and all employers have to provide it if you work for yourself. You have to buy or face stiff fines that's there solution. It's the force the coercive solution of course free market economists health policy analyst on the concert libertarians. I suggested lots. This we want people more people will be sure to but how can you do that well get rid of regulations that cause health insurance to cost more of your red regulations that that cause havoc causes healthcare like certificate of need laws.

For example, that because healthcare could cost more, so you can affect the same solution, which we all want, but through noncoercive means they always take the coercive routers is the argument I make Roy some would argue that progressivism is growing in popularity in this country why that's a good question. I think it's because it's easy. I mean, the fact is, is that state coercion is easy. You don't like something, what was the first thing there should be a law right I mean this is this is how we we we've come to think, which is an unfortunate that if you want something to be different. You just pass a lot of for to force it to be different and that's a very appealing to people you have to actually think through free market solutions to act to understand them talking with Dr. Roy Coronado and talking about the piece that he is written which you can find a Carolina Journal.com for John lock.org Dr. Lori sure statement is much more Carolina Journal radio to come in just a moment, North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John Locke foundation and Carolina Journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina Journal.

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Journal welcome back Carolina Journal radio. I mixed coca type students back on college campuses in North Carolina and across the country now seems like a good time to review the current state of free speech on those campuses. Joining us with expert insight is Robert Shibley is Executive Director of the foundation for individual rights in education, also known as fire expert joining us for having me.

We had you on this program before one of the main topics is been speech codes on campuses. So let's talk about that first thing stand in terms of the actual policies of these campuses that limit when, where, and how students could speak well the good news is that in terms of actual policies. There are fewer speech codes on campus now than there have been since we started measuring seven or eight years ago. I'm back for the first time last year. The number of speech okay so we rate speech codes at 440 of the largest and most prestigious universities in America and we rewritten re-rate those every year and this last year was the first time that the percentage of red light. Speech codes of the very worst us because we give them a red light drops below 50% was 49.9% but it was below 50 for the first time it was 75. The first year we are measuring so there's deftly been progress along those lines. Unfortunately, most of the schools that are remaining are not greenlight schools, the best school schools with no speech codes at all, but rather yellow light schools, which are schools that have features that can too easily be used to abuse free speech on campus, but which are as laughably unconstitutional or is laughably against the principal to free speech as red light speech codes North Carolina schools compare favorably or are we doing better or worse than the nation as a whole is actually doing a little bit better than the nation as a whole and has one of the more recent conversions to greenlight in your sin, North Carolina, Chapel Hill, which just last year became a greenlight school and there's only because less than 25 of those in the nation. So that's actually a really good distinction and we were work with UNC for a long time to get them there. I wish the rest of the system would would do that to but so far that hasn't been the case will some relatively good news then on speech codes.

But that isn't the only way universities across the country are seeing some attacks on free speech.

We've seen lots of cases in the news Harvard Yale University Missouri. Sometimes even the attacks are not coming from the University itself, but from professors or even students.

What are some of the main things that are striking you right now as red flags dealing with speech on campus while in the real red flags that developed last year was a increase in hostility and invisible hostility towards free speech from students like you said that increasing number of students who seemed dead set against free speech in a number of ways.

Some would ban press members from members of the press from attending their protest. There were some that you know Flatley said that certain people are welcome at their protest.

There were protests against free speech itself and the idea against free speech probably bruise prominently at Harvard Law school, so this is the first free speech is beginning to be made a scapegoat for the other problems that campuses have and that something that, of course, buyer wants to push back on because free speech is a solution to the problem, not not the problem we are speaking with Robert Shibley. He is Executive Director of the foundation for individual rights in education, also known as fire. This has to be particularly disturbing. That's one thing for the campus officials who don't like people complaining about what they're doing or saying bad things about them to get up in arms and try to limit that to nothing for the students themselves did not want to engage in debate that has to be of a special concern is a huge concern and unfortunately you know from what we can tell, you know, obviously colleges and universities are encouraging this kind of behavior by not only rewarding people who you want to censor each other by agreeing to do it and by sending the wrong messages which they been doing for decades about free speech but friendly students are coming into college with this idea that speech is something dangerous, something that should be limited and something that the authorities should limit even when it's when it's them saying it that that is kind of new development. It seems like a switch is kind of flipped in the last probably not more than two or three years and where that's coming from, whether it's just simply a cultural shift or whether it something is changing K-12 education. It certainly been really disturbing development deceived students is to be the most reliable advocates of their own rights. After all, it's it's their skin in the game and unfortunately that's that's less true than it has been obviously you don't overstate the case, but I think a lot of the students who do support free speech you support due process is support of the traditional rights that Americans enjoy are being shouted down and and basically shamed by people who want to blame the existence of these rights. You know they want to blame other problems on the fact that these rights are out there. The very rights that make it possible for people to know about the problems they're talking about and to express their disapproval of it you work for a group that spends much of its time on the issues regarding free speech.

So if we have this new problem. The split being switched.

As you mentioned what we do about it. Well, you know, one thing that fire is doing is we are going further towards education efforts. I we want to try to reach into the K-12 area. Educationally, were not going to begin taking cases from the high school students were censored anytime soon. Fire is always been focused on higher Ed but the fact is, if the group of people coming into higher Ed believe in free speech. There's only so much that you can do to try to protect it. To try to defend it so we need to be able to get the students earlier and so working on ways to do that.

We are also working on negation that would help to further those goals because thankfully the court still largely supports free speech. What happens to our campuses. If we lose this support for Sprint free speech what's what's going to be the downside for those who are listening well it sounds bad but hey I'm not on college Or about What a Huge Downside and It's Going to Be a Visible Downside Is That the Wheels of Progress Are Going to Grind to a Stop, and I Don't Just Mean the Wheel Social Progress Is Just A Lot Of People Think of Progress, but the Fact Is This Attitude Is Bleeding over into the Sciences. It Bleeds over into Not Just the Social Sciences but Also the Hard Sciences, and a Whole Variety of Different Topics, Eager to Start See the Oncologist Be Far Less Productive. See Colleges Get a Reputation for Not Being Place Where People Can Do Clear Thinking Where the Things That Are Not Popular Things.

There Are Things That Are Unpopular with Physicists or Biologists or Whatever They May Be Right. They May Be Wrong. We Have No Idea. But If You Have a Culture Where It's Common to Try to Silence the Opposition. The Others Turns out to Be Right, You'll Literally Stop the Advance of Science and That's Got to Be Noticeable of What Can Happen Then Is a Huge Decrease in the Confidence That Americans Have in Institutions of Higher Education. There Is a Decrease in Funding a Decrease in Popularity and It's Good to Be Quite Visible Colleges Is Going to Start to Become Considered a Joke in Many Ways and Forcing Us Could Have Been Faster. I Think A Lot Of People Believe I'm Certainly Faster Than Colleges Believe They Believe That They Can Note Consistently Disregard and Ignore These Rights and Nothing Bad Will Happen and They're Wrong about That Time Remaining Is Short, but If There's College Student out There Listening or the Parent of College Student so It Works at Colleges Has Waited but I Know about Some Problems in the Sounds like Someone Who Might Be Able to Help Me.

How Could Someone Get in Touch with Fire to Share Their Concerns.

The Best Way Is to Check out Our Website of the Fire.org TGF Ire.org and You Can Submit a Case or Question on That Website. We Handle Hundreds of Them a Year. It Goes up Every Year and Were Happy to Talk to You and Give You Advice Robert Shibley. He Is Executive Director of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education Proper. Thanks so Much. Think We'll Have More on Carolina Journal Radio Just a Moment at the John Locke Foundation Where Leading the Effort to Clean up the Mess Left behind by Big Government Liberals for Decades. The Powerful Left in Our State Had Piled on Rule after Rule, Regulation after Regulation Never Really Caring about the People Whose Lives Are Caught in the Nightmare of Complying. In Other Words, You Their Handiwork Had Made It Tougher to Get a Job Even Increase the Legal Risk of Operating a Business. We Say Enough Is Enough That It's Just Not Fair to You. That's Why Reform Minded Lawmakers Have Turned to the Locke Foundation for Answers and Acted to Lighten Your Burden Were Proud That Our Intellectual Firepower Has Improved Lives.

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You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate past the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to last the John Locke foundation. So here's how it works long time to smile.amazon.com Amazon smile. It's the same Amazon you know same products same prices is much better. Amazon donates .5% of the price of your eligible purchases to pass the John Lott foundation to try and be sure to designate the Locke foundation is a nonprofit, you want to support. It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy will also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation.

Welcome back Carolina Journal radio I Michiko kind the nature of work is changing around the world in the United States and in North Carolina. North Carolina State University's Institute for emerging issues recently held a forum focusing on the future of work.

One panelist, John Locke foundation chairman John Hood moderator Tim Pulliam gave Hood an opportunity to take on a popular myth about work. It's the notion that our state would benefit from a higher government mandated minimum wage of high wages and low wages continue is a big gap in between. Do we need to examine the issue of minimum-wage particulars we think about future work in jobs that could could exist in the future. This is a well plowed field. The every time a little sprout comes up with prevalent back over the debates been going on for decades. My own view is that it that raise the minimum wage is the worst. Possibly Tyler plan if you're trying to address people who are low income people who work at minimum wage, not necessarily the people who are poor most of the people who are poor for chronic. Link to periods of time they not working full time at any wage working part-time, or not at all.

So we want to create jobs were great opportunities to move up to the next level. There are people who support themselves and and families all minimum-wage or shortly or hire someone hire the minimum wage.

There also lots of people work at minimum wage who do not were not in that situation. Getting the first job there 16 or 17 or 18 or 19. I don't come from low income families. So getting economic opportunity right creating opportunities for higher paying jobs is distinguishable from whether to raise the minimum wage, as some conservatives do panic too much about when wage increases in propos and suggest all sorts of gigantic horrible things will happen. The labor market. The truth is the number jobs affect about when wage is pretty small so the effect positive or negative, or relatively small in the whole scheme of things. The real issue is putting capital in the hands of workers capital is what makes labor more valuable, which leads to labor being more highly paid capital can be physical capital could be tools and equipment but mostly now it's human capital. It's what's in your head and what you're capable of doing with your hands, to the extent that we approve education to the extent that we incentivize capital investment of all kinds.

Wages will rise in the minimum wage will be a fairly minor part of the story.

Whatever you think that's John Locke foundation chairman John Hood is explaining to the audience at NC State University's emerging issues forum. Why a higher minimum wage is not the answer to improving the state's economy will return with more Carolina Journal radio moment. If you the freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state. All in one place North Carolina conservative.com one-stop shopping for North Carolina St. movement had North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blocks on the days news Carolina Journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina Journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analyst plus opinion pieces and reports on higher education. All of that from the Pope Center for higher education policy commentary and polling data from the Cintas Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Log on today. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko kind. If you haven't spent much time thinking about the potential danger of an electromagnetic pulse EMP next guest hopes to change that situation.

Dr. James Carol Bono is vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at the Heritage foundation. Thanks for joining us to be with you.

So EMP may have heard that term in many of them don't know what it is.

So what is right so there's two reasons why people should worry about it.

One is because it's could happen and the other is a bit does what it might do so.

Electro magnetic pulse is exactly what it sounds like as a flush of electromagnetic energy. If it's higher. Its massive much like when you have yet a flood of water going your and your plumbing system in your house, your pipes are to burst. It would if you have a flood of electromagnetic energy is potentially could short out all electrical system. So how do you get a big giant massive pulse of electronic energy that that might change the way we live and there's two ways. One is you can detonate a nuclear weapon when we know that how that happens because so we did nuclear tests back in the day and some of them are airburst testimony to the airburst test we discovered that when you do most nuclear weapons, military use was called a low airburst right you dented close to the ground and the reason why you do that is what the maximum amount of energy to touch the earth where your target is right so if the electromagnetic pulse which was generated by nuclear weapon if it might affect electoral system.

You wouldn't notice because the other effects of the nuclear weapon would melt it or blow it up or destroy it. So what happens when you detonate the weapon in the atmosphere and space. What happens is that the physical energy. The explosion fires a result that dissipates course, but nothing stops electromagnetic entry so it it blossoms like gun and the splenocytes were just keeps going until it touches something and like all forms of electric energy like the lightning right it's could be attracted to an electrical system and and if it's a massive amount of energy it it could burn out that system and we discovered this we had these nuclear tests and in the lights in Hawaii started to dim and monitoring systems, crazy. So an enemy could detonate one large and clear weapon over the United States and potentially take out the entire electrical grid. Now the other way that could potentially have some occult space weather which the wacky term but that's what scientists call it.

And that is this the solar flares are kicked out by the sun. We've all heard about or seen about that.

You know sometimes your cell phone goes a wackier TV antenna goes crazier when they say airplanes may be having old problem communicator something.

But what happens if you have a massive solar flare and these occur on intervals of around hundreds of years and that would look very much like the massive flood of electrons that would come out from a nuclear weapon, but it's generated by the sun. We haven't had one of those since the turn of the 19th century and nobody cared in the 19th century because many legible systems, but if it happened today you would have this massive thing. So what's the problem there in the in the fundamental problem is, is the loss of of the electrical grid. If you lose the US electrical grid.

That is a life-changing experience that that nobody is experienced in our lifetime we actually did some research because nothing like that's ever happened. So we try to mimic that would do, but understanding what other kinds of disasters we looked at large-scale blackouts and cities looked into large-scale weather events that take out infrastructure earthquakes and and try and understand that and then scale that if you had a weapon that was big enough to cover the entire United States and Canada or if you had a massive solar flare which could potentially cover an entire hemisphere and the one thing we discovered is the one thing the United States can't survive as a loss of its electrical grid. By some estimates, 90% of Americans will die and that seems weird. I think the people because okay so let's say the grid burns out.

What's the big deal well. There is no transportation network. Social communication networks. Hospitals don't work. People can cool communicator diabetes Joel you know insulin for diabetes and so the loss of medical care. The loss of heating and cooling systems. The loss of transportation systems they think about 90% of America would woods would die or or or dive exposure or hunger or disease within a year or so when it's all said and done, is a likely event. While there's no way to put probability for that we know someday there will be a massive solar. We know that the technology really exists to deliver a weapon like so it's possible nobody can you odds with peers, we can say it's arguably may be the only thing which could affect the United States, which is actually truly genocidal right with around 30 million Americans 90% of them dying. There's very very few other threats that could happen in our lifetimes, which might equal that so that's why it may be something worth being concerned about that is the voice of Dr. James care final vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at the Heritage foundation, so it sounds awfully scary. 90% of the population could die because one of these things, but there is something that we can do to help prevent boiler damage writer. I mean, that will there's two things right one is in order to have an EMP effect on a large scale covering a massive geographic area. The site writes how to get line of sight to geography. You get very high or very high, you're looking over the mountains and everything else right so you want to detonate a nuclear weapon was called Apogee which is when it's at the high point of its trajectory, so it radiates downward and you want a very big nuclear weapon so one way to do without us to shoot the missile down before detonates.

So missile defense which is kind of a multipurpose production. The missile defense doesn't care somebody shooting a missile at Los Angeles or other doing an MP strike to take out the US electrical grid. The missile defenses just to shoot the damn thing down. So I think comprehensive missile defense is a kind of a one stop solution for that type of EMP genocidal threat, then you to the solar flare question should the sundown. There's a couple things we could do one is early morning, even late is an instantaneous right in electromagnetic energy has to travel here and that's going to take on the order of 30 minutes or more. And so if you have adequate early warning systems of your space weather event and you understand the scale and the thing or some mitigating effect, you could take to mitigate the threat ready to shut stuff off records for the let electrical current system if it isn't operating right suck to attract and electromagnetic charge. There might be some other mitigating effect. She could. You could take in your infrastructure to ensure that you could start up again think the key thing is is you have to be able to run electrical grid back on that. That's you have an outage of a couple hours and days move all experience I knew outage is made last trip.

I snarled everything, but you have to be able to get than the national I say the national grid they don't if you're Canadian dude, you're screwed right is section American Canadian electrical grids, anything that happens to us in our grades can happen in Canada since actually a joint problem between US and Canada, but you can have the grid be out for more than I certainly not on a large scale so that means you have to have some way to mitigate the effects that I think that's where the debate is what it what's for the what get the right cost-benefit.

What's the right combination of mitigation techniques that you want to use to protect against solar flares and then I think you know we should be moving rapidly towards comprehensive national missile defense because there are think increasingly more states with long-range weapons and nuclear weapons are can reach us in. I just I just don't think a genocidal attack is something that, but we should leave on the table while as the debate moves forward. We at least want people to know that there is a debate and that they should be paying attention to the electromagnetic pulse, and the threat of an EMP attack or the solar flares Dr. James care final is vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at the Heritage foundation. Thanks much for doing so. Things are happening will have more on Carolina journal radio just a moment at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades. The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business. We say enough is enough that it's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives. You can count on the John Locke foundation to watch out for your interest.

The special interests. We would be honored to have your help in this fight. John Locke.org and make a tax-deductible donation. Right now the John Locke foundation with fighting for you were fighting for freedom, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. It's called over criminalization that the term applied to the many rules and regulations that are now actually treated as crimes in North Carolina's criminal code the effort to remove these crimes from state law is growing with support crossing ideological lines left center and right and it includes at the forefront of this movement, John Locke foundation Becky Gray is vice president for outreach.

She's here to explain exactly what this is all about Becky. Welcome back thinking when we use the word crime or the phrase criminal code. I think a lot of us think well robbing a bank stealing a car that's a crime but what were talking about here is a bit different. Help us understand.

Go back and look at his criminal code has grown just tremendously over the last several years and that's for a variety of reasons. One thing you have to think about what do legislators do they legislate said they pass rules. They pass regulations, we hear so many times of injustices and someone says will back out to be a crime looking at this criminal code has grown going to grind what we seen a lot of things that really are in the mind conducting personal business or business that has become written into the criminal code so this is an effort nationally is not just in North Carolina. There's an effort at the national level but there's also effort at the state level and North Carolina has been getting some attention for the S number one because we now have an environment of a legislature and a governor who were interested in making government work better be fair. More opportunities for people on that.

Also, North Carolina's criminal code has grown tremendously.

So it's bringing some common sense to it when the real problems with this is often these crimes are. These actions become crimes and part of the deal with that is the person that is committing – doesn't have any responsibility to have any intent or even to know about the criminal code and so if they call that in legal terms. Men's right and said there's an effort to avoid an attempt to pull back some of this.

If you do something totally inadvertently with no intent to break a law unknowingly that perhaps we need to look at that in a different way and hold nice things out of the criminal code.

I know that one of the concerns with the growth of the criminal code. In particular has to do with people who may be operating. Small businesses are big busy exactly for that matter, but if your small business owner or manager Becky you're going back to business every day to try to sell your product or your service and there's all sorts of rules and regulations. You have to keep track of and it can become overwhelming. Are you saying then if someone in that situation inadvertently breaks a rule from some state board, they could actually be charged with a crime. That is exactly right with pretty hefty monetary penalties and in some cases even jail time is included in soaking as you mentioned. Small businesses are going about their business of creating their business in writing that vessel businesses have teams of long years. He's job it is to monitor the federal criminal code, the state criminal Kaiser that when changes are made there on top of all of that small businesses don't have the resources to do that so it limits their ability to grow it limits their opportunity. You know if you're trying to start a business and don't have the funds to hire big expensive high-powered attorneys to monitor all of those things just the rat that you might do something that is a crime that is against the law is a deterrent in itself for you to pursue those opportunities.

That's where individuals many low income individuals and small businesses, not the big high-powered entrepreneurs that you hear about that. You people every day people are deterred from starting your business because of this over criminalization. I would certainly think twice because I've never really thought about it in those terms I be thinking about you cannot hire someone to help me make my service better. Can I get more customers. How like my investment pay off business and not with defending yourself against unknown activity that unite may commit a crime, you are not even aware off Becky. This is one of these issues where the John Locke foundation has really been leading the effort for more than a year now we been writing about it.

You've been talking about it you travel across the state and when you talk about this Sam to people who may live in Western North Carolina, or along the coast are folks even aware that this is an issue every day. Thanks are not until they run into it.

You have your small business under your someone trying to conduct a business are unaware of it and tell you somebody's chest up at your door and you bought the lie that where we really getting the traction on and the interest and that is with members of the Gen. assembly.

I mentioned a lot and I she's been at the forefront of this it is been for several years that we have done is we've had some national partners. Some things at the Manhattan Institute have written a lot about this specifically about North Carolina in a couple years ago that we were down and visited probably a dozen lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. Some very that's when lawmakers some new lawmakers, mostly attorneys because they are familiar with, ask, and I would take the response that we can't to do something about this was overwhelming and and some of the most left-leaning Democrat leadership were sorted at the forefront of I would welcome the opportunity to help you with – this is something that needs to be done. Everyone recognizes the need for a partisan issue at all. So I'm very helpful and actually we have introduced at the Gen. assembly in every year into sort of different formats, but the thought of a task force to going on and look at this and this is one of the things it needs to be done thoughtfully. You can't just go and you and I can't sit at the table with a red pen as I will list it makes there's unintended consequences and you don't want. You don't cross that line. As you mentioned at the beginning of the segment we don't want to make it okay. You can break into somebody's house and steal stuff you want to make sure that it's a spot fully on Don at it as it has on thoughtfully and Don Anza were talking about setting up a task force having some really thoughtful people having some judges some attorneys some business owners be part of that so we can began to look at that and very thoughtfully unravel this criminal code and bring some sense to it and bring some opportunity back to North Carolinians rather than this uneven threatening system that we have now. It's pretty interesting because as you're describing now what the recommendation is and hopefully this task force will will come to fruition, but the Locke foundation has been very successful on what I will call almost a parallel track in terms of rules and regulations about talking for years about the negative impact on people and businesses and we been really successful now and moving that idea forward and having a lot of those things scrutinize like they've never been scrutinized in – the rules and regulations you talking about are willing fiscal impact that those rules and regulations have on businesses an opportunity with this over criminalization. It's really a loss of freedom within us and the threat of freedom. And yes, in many cases there are monetary penalties with ask that you know when you're locked in prison for something that you didn't tell me that's where the ultimate rat to freedom, but then on the side kind of the unspoken loss of freedom to and that you are hesitant to pursue per se the freedoms that you are entitled to because of fear of you know what if I break the law in doing yes and it's particularly threatening to low income folks on mission Hispanic population. Everybody's threatened this and so it's something that we are very optimistic as we may follow.

It was what I sings during the short session as we talked about many legislators told me we need to do this thoughtfully. This feels more like a long session kind of thing to get going. So what optimistic in 2017 that will be able to move forward with some reforms in this area. Becky Gracie's vice president for outreach to the one sure that all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening.

Half of my cohost Mitch open Donna Martinez join us again next week for another edition. Carolina Journal Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke to learn more about the job donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio sending email to development John Locke.call 1866166554636 Carolina Journal radio nation airline is running this program. Nearly, or other foundation airline sponsored again