Carolina Journal Radio No. 715: Charter school popularity helps blunt Wake enrollment growth costs

From Cherokee to current attack and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio live Ashoka during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state, our system of government requires people to have a basic understanding of how it works. That's why to members of the North Carolina Supreme Court are leading a statewide campaign, voting, civics education, state lawmakers will push again this year to raise the age for juvenile criminal offenders. You'll hear highlights from a recent debate about the topic of your faces will lead the North Carolina House and Senate again this year. You hear the top priorities of House Speaker Tim Moore and Senate leader Phil Berger, plus you learn why taxpayers should pay attention to bids in both Charlotte and Raleigh to land a major league soccer franchise topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline school choice advocates from across the country have spent the last week touting the benefits of empowering parents by giving them choices in how and where their kids to be educated the John Locke foundation.

Of course as champion choice for decades, and in fact has helped North Carolina become a leader in the choice movement and now growth projections from the state's largest public school district illustrates just how much parents really like being able to choose Dr. Terry stoops is the John Locke foundation's director of research and education studies joins us now to talk about some of the newest data. Welcome back to the shelf. Thank you. This is fascinating what's going on in wake County now for the second year in a row. They have lowered their long-term enrollment projections, but people are moving into wake County.

So what gives with that weather moving in the wake County and there to convention the many options, the wake County provides especially charter schools, and this is been an ongoing issue with wake County. Our state's largest school district because it had been growing so fast and they've had to spend millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in building new facilities so there enrollment projections are important for determining whether the voters have to decide on whether to approve more debt for school facilities and whether they have to go on russet of recruiting trips for teachers, especially from other states to find teachers to come into the system so the fact that they have actually estimated down means that taxpayers are not going to be hit with more taxes to build more buildings, the school district will be better able to manage. It's the personnel in the system. Taxpayers then be getting some relief and parents are getting more choices. Sounds like one of those classic win-win situations.

Sam that's the way you see it. But does everybody see it that way. Absolutely not school system via school system. The school board advocacy groups.

Of course see this is a terrible thing that parents have all these choices are not choosing the traditional district system. They believe that all students should go to the district system for various reasons. Some believe because� They believed it to be of superior education. Some people believe that it's a matter of the common good. Are there some sort of thing that brings us together by going to the traditional district system, but the reality is is that parents aren't necessarily thinking about those things. Parents are thinking about their children and their thinking about what's best for their children, and increasingly their finding that what's best for their children is not attending the school system that has over hundred and 50,000 students and over 10,000 teachers but rather to charter school works a tightknit community is typically less than a thousand students. Typically, smaller faculties, smaller class size. This is what parents want when it comes to the charter schools, and increasingly more homeschooling which has the smallest class sizes in the smallest teacher to student ratio and this is these are the kind of choices.

The North Carolina is giving to parents and more to the kind of choices that there increasingly taking advantage of Terry. People who support giving parents more opportunities more choices to decide for themselves. Sam typically cast as somehow anti-public school. But is it possible to believe that everyone should just be able to choose what's best for them and not be anti-public school. If this is really unfortunate. This is something that I talk about a lot when I talk about school choices that the parents that opt out of school of traditional district school don't do so because they're mad at the district system or that they're mad at the parents that send their kids to the district system. There's no malice there. There is no anger there.

Rather, they are simply exercising a choice that I think a lot more parents wish they had.

And unfortunately don't so if you talk to any parent that exercises that choice I don't think you will find very many at all that say that the reason why they left is because the traditional system is somehow doing destructive things there simply saying that you know my child has unique needs. I had something completely different in mind when it came to my child's education. And that's why chose to go a different route. Not to mention that charter schools are part of the public system. So in that case, they're not even opting out of the public system in their county that was interesting that in the stories that have been written about wake County for the second year now. Lowering those enrollment growth projections. One of the officials on the wake County commission made a comment that they're happy to compete. The mere fact that their thinking in terms of competition a good thing for quality and excellent thing for quality and UniFirst for so many years. It wasn't that there were competing with charter schools.

It's that the charter schools were just taking their money and there was really no competition. They're just taking their money wasting it.

But now they're saying something else that charter schools are providing a high quality academic education for the children that attend and that as it gets better and better than the kids that are in the district system start to see where the second unit of these charter schools are actually giving a better education with other advantages such as proximity to their home were the fact that they're not in a system of 150,000 kids which could be overwhelming to a lot of parents, especially parents that move into the County and there used to having small school districts where they come from and suddenly their RNase a countywide district with over hundred 50,000 kids a could be extremely overwhelming.

That fact alone would be sufficient for parents to find out if seek out a charter school option for their children.

Let's talk a little bit more about charters and roughly how many of them are there in North Carolina and are they spread out across the state were approaching 170 charter schools in North Carolina were getting close but not quite at 100,000 students attending charter schools, which is double the students we had just five years ago. They have become more spread out over they are concentrated in urban and suburban counties for now. Sometimes a startup in a charter school in a rural community can be difficult but were finding more and more the charter schools are thriving in those areas so as the number of charter schools grows thanks to the work of the Gen. assembly former Gov. Pat McCoury were key in making sure that the charter school sector expanded North Carolina were finding that there's more opportunities for students, regardless of where they live in North Carolina and not just for those in wake of Mecklenburg or the surrounding counties couple minutes ago you mentioned homeschooling that seems to be growing by leaps and bounds as well and there was a time when people equated homeschools with religious education but not so much anymore. No, deafly not so much anymore. Homeschools are the mainstream. We've seen approximately a doubling of charter. If excuse me of homeschools in the last seven or eight years, homeschooling has become much easier with the internets and access to materials but not only that the Gen. assembly made sure that homeschoolers have more allowances when it comes to participating in group activities so homeschooling is become much more popular, much easier and much more of a community that I think a lot of people envision what homeschooling is. It's not just kids sitting at home all day. It's kid sitting at home most of the day in the participating of activities with their peers outside of the home for the remainder Terry what option seems to really have the wind as its added sale. So does so to speak is a charters is it homeschools what's really ground really charters and homeschools of the two sectors that are growing by leaps and bounds private schooling not so much of the great recession. Of course, had a lot to do with the fact that paying for private schools difficult for a lot of parent for families. So, prime schools not growing as quickly, although with our private school voucher programs were seeing some growth in the private school sector, but homeschooling, of course, has the largest segments of well over 115,000 students, but were going to see homeschooling and charter schooling continue to grow and the district school system will continue to grow as well but not as fast as those in all of the state. Of course, is why the John Locke foundation this week participated in National school choice week. Dr. Terry stoops is the Locke foundation's director of research and education studies. You can read all of his work at John Locke. Thank you. Thank you. Say with as much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment North Carolina lawmakers head back to Raleigh. There's a new governor in town working together or working against each other will make big decisions decisions that affect you, your wallet, your home, your business, your kids education to keep up with those big decisions day by day. Even minute by minute look to Carolina journal, a full team of reporters and analysts there watching the action in the state capital. The reporting minute by minute developments for you Carolina journal. It's available each month as a free newspaper and every day with updated stories@carolinajournal.com find us on Facebook to share items from Carolina journal share items from the John Locke foundation. Follow us on Twitter at Carolina journal at John Locke in C and at Becky Gray Carolina journal it your go to source for news about state government and how government affects your life. Visit Carolina journal.com today. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got in order for our system of government to work well.

People need some basic understanding of how that system works.

The idea behind civics education in our next guests are devoting some of their already busy schedules to the topic of civics education, the Hon. Sam Ervin the fourth and the Hon. Paul Newby associate Justices on the North Carolina Supreme Court. Thanks for joining us in the program having with you to understand that in addition to just a general interest in civics education you're working on this as part of the project was set up by Chief Justice Mark Martin tells about that. That's right will since 1776, or state constitutions emphasize that a frequent recurrence of fundamental principles absolutely necessary to preserve the blessings of liberty. Chief Justice Martin, in recognition of that and also the challenges that we see across our state with regard to the lack of civic education has encouraged us to serve and myself to be proactive in this area. Just a certain wise is so important. Well, I think you alluded to it in your opening remarks.

He obviously is a Democratic or Republican, or however you want private small the ball are exactly all validity or workability of that system depends on the existence of an educated citizenry and so to the extent that the citizens of the state don't have the information about the blade government works to function all in in that type of government.

Accordingly, we are all risk and so were trying to do is to do what we can let your citizens understand how the government works with particular emphasis on the rolled issue replacing in our government so we know that this education is important, including the role of the judiciary.

What are you all doing to help people learn about will the good news is this emphasis coincides with a whole bunch of anniversaries are court we have the 50th anniversary of the consolidated court system where we have the district courts as opposed to what you speak. Justice of the peace or city courts Municipal Court. That type of thing we have the 50th anniversary of Court of Appeals 240th anniversary of the Superior Court which is our court, but we've had since our founding in 1776 and then we have the Supreme Court looking at this 200th anniversary and the years 2018 2090 and in addition to that bill that's being done by broker committee calls different branches.

The court system justice median are also I think it's fair to say primarily responsible for the creation and ministration of the speakers Bureau where we arrange for think the numbers approximately 300 different folks who volunteer to do this to go across the state speak school groups, church group, see the groups anybody did listen to Michelle about the salt top. We are chatting with two members of the North Carolina Supreme Court, the Hon. Sam Ervin the fourth in the Hon. Paul Newby associate Justices on that court. Obviously you all a busy looking at cases hearing arguments going through medical legal documents.

Why is it so important to be devoting time and attention to this project to, but we certainly care about the future of our state and it is vital that people understand the significance of appreciating the kind of system that we have for 99% of the history of the world.

People believe that those in power defined rights and yet we have a system that says that all are created equal and endowed by our Creator with certain rights of life, liberty to pursue happiness. Jefferson said we need a revolution every 20 years to help people's step back and go well. How should we govern ourselves. So this important and I think one of the reasons that we are doing this is to emphasize the role of the judiciary.

I think it only Paul would agree with me when I say this is when we go out and speak to people about government and judicial branches.

Probably the least understood branch of their folksy range from one believe it has no power to the belief that it has unlimited power.

In it we can do whatever we want to Kneaders true and so is part of this it's important to understand what role did you issue judicial branch actually played site at three times what role the judicial branch place what its authority is what the limitations on its authority or how the people displaying that system G which role calls that in many ways is the least understood part of our system of government. That's one reason you let into a something that I was going to bring up when you're out talking to people and they know the drill. The Supreme Court you get a general sense that people know what the Supreme Court or the courts of general do or do they have sort of a sort of a skewed sense of it. The most frequently asked question I get is oh you're just so Supreme Court can help me with my speeding ticket. Generally speaking you know it, and it the good news is, most people not encounter the judicial system.

The bad news is, most folks don't understand the judicial system. I think that's fair on the app I haven't for some reason gotten asked about speeding tickets.

Maybe there's a perception adjuster Steve is better that why I put out I do think their logical means any questions about why are you elected. Why don't you do this that or the other. While she talked to me about this particular kind of case just like the legislature will there's additional all I don't think are perfectly good reasons. Many citizens really understand how the courts function and what the role system deals into the extent we can do something to alleviate that deficit, public education, it would be a good thing cannot insert something just as folks are listening to this if you want a speaker you want to judge one a lawyer to come talk about our state constitution federal Constitution any aspect of this visit celebrate NC courts.org celebrate and see courts.org and you can pick and choose from that list of what speakers you would like to come to an end there there. I haven't checked this precisely, but I did on account of the number of people who signed up for it and I think their people willing to do that is yielding somewhere around 90 of the 100 counties in state and local laws, including the two of us have agreed to our schedule to go anywhere and strike you in the people that are participants that include not just the two of us, but all other.

District Court judges Court of Appeals judges trial court most writers, lawyers all interested citizens. It's a wide range range of people, so you can almost get count of speaker you wall up to a certain degree of flexibility. What's good to know that those options are available to pay attention to the governor what he or she does. Also the general assembly gets in the news lobby don't hear a whole heck of a lot about the courts other than criminal trial. Certainly not the appellate courts we don't hear much about the why is it so important that people know what the courts do and their role in our overall system, but I think it's 618 68. We've been electing judges so it's incumbent upon people to understand the role as they seek to elect and reelect justices just Bob Edmonds are others that are on the ballot this time need people to fully understand the role that we play over not legislate towards in black robes. If you see a judge on the front page of paper. It's, like seeing a referee on the front page of the sports section. Some went wrong so it's a good thing when we are under the radar screen.

Simply doing our job and I think that's fair in that I do think there is a sense of in in in a number of different segments of the society judges have some kind of the ex cathedra list what we think we ought to do regardless of what Lawley is that kind of mentality is out there and to the extent we can explain what we can and can't do and get the public to understand that I think level public confidence in the judiciary will increase and that is important because in a society that operates off the rule of law, rule of law is only as effective as his citizens degree of support for well certainly an important topic and if you'd like to learn more.

Once again, that website.

The website is celebrate NC courts.org all right. We thank the Hon. Sam Ervin the fourth and the voice you just heard the Hon. Paul Newby associate Justices on the North Carolina Supreme Court maximum thinking more on Carolina journal radio at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades.

The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business. We say enough is enough. It's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives.

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So now not only will you enjoy what you buy will also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio hi Michiko guy some North Carolina lawmakers are pushing once again to treat 16 and 17-year-old criminal offenders as juveniles Democratic representative Duane the hall of wake County recently reminded colleagues of the potential benefits. The big one is recidivist rate far, far lower juvenile systems diversion programs. The juvenile systems reduce crime and one of the objections to the bills I had was obviously calls but all the studies all other states have shown that juvenile systems save states literally tens of millions of dollars, or should the state of North Carolina safety of the children's. Another major concern. Children are far more likely to get right when they are held in adult prisons 36 times more likely to commit suicide are held in adult prisons and a lot of its fairness to our children, even for the smallest misdemeanors that they are convicted of when. That's something I don't record it sticks with them for the rest of their lives when they have to compete against children, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, who may have made the exact same type of youthful mistake, but because their states treat. There is, as juveniles, they don't have that permanent record when they have to compete for collagen jobs for the rest of your lives.

All says groups across the political spectrum support the change American legislative exchange Council Alec conservatives for criminal justice reform. Counsel for children's rights, disability rights, the Locke foundation, NC child, North Carolina division of adult correction, juvenile justice, North Carolina magistracy Association North Carolina police benevolent Association North Carolina sentencing policy advisory commission and the North Carolina sheriffs Association Dist. Atty. Wallace Bradsher of Caswell in person counties raised an objection agree with all of the goals of raising the juvenile and giving young people the record not for I believe in creating a redemptive process. However over this 20 years. I saw a lot of times and break was just a break and wasn't transformative. My concern about just raising the age that arbitrary 16 and 17-year-olds. We have people come in our courts that are truly kids who made one youthful mistake. It would be great in juvenile court. We also have 16 and 17-year-olds who are men who are hardened gang members who are drug dealers who are violent who don't work well putting them with 14 and 15-year-olds in the same courtroom in the same system would be negative for all those of the young people that were trying to say. Raising the age of the juvenile justice system would require support from the full state House and Senate will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment. If you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state.

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Log on today. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy familiar faces are leading both the North Carolina Senate and the House of Representatives this year, senators reelected Republican Phil Berger of Rockingham County to his fourth term as Senate leader after the boat. Berger reminded colleagues of the situation. Lawmakers faced when he first took the job just six short years ago Horsley face the double digit unemployment rate for the highest in the entire country now due in large part to difficult decisions made by the legislature are an employment rate is falling in had North Carolina is creating jobs faster than other states. North Carolina once struggled with stagnant job growth, declining family incomes no now throbbing economy is generated more than 450,000 new jobs.

The number of working North Carolinians has sold the historic median household income in North Carolina has jumped by close to $10,000 per household. Our state and its private sector economic engine was once burdened with the highest taxes in the Southeast and one of the worst tax climates in the nation now as a result of our nationally recognized tax cuts and tax reform North Carolina businesses and citizens pay billions of dollars less in taxes. Our state now boasts the best tax climate in the region and the 11th best tax climate in the nation. There is still more work to be done. We once weighed down by record budget deficits and billions of dollars in debt to the federal government now balanced budgets and control spending, along with a growing economy have yielded consecutive years of budget surplus.

Our debt to the federal government is paid in full are also reminded colleagues of recent gains in public education, public schools were once struggling with declining state support thousands of state-funded teacher's positions were limited features were furloughed in their pay was frozen.

Now state funding for public schools is reached record levels new teachers have been hired an average teacher put his clown above $50,000 the first time in state history. When we assume the majority in January 2011 our state's rainy day fund was depleted.

Now, as we saw with the swift response to recent natural disasters. We are well prepared for emergencies and downturns with more than 1 1/2 billion dollars in the state savings reserve.

There's no question that do the hard work and perseverance of public service in this building and are supportive families are state is made a dramatic turnaround it's working toward the constant positive change that help make North Carolina the best state to build a business in the best state to live and raise a family Senate leader Phil Berger contrasted the Gen. assembly's recent accomplishments with the types of stories that generate negative headlines. Perhaps there is no better example of the problems we can solve who work together in the aftermath of hurricane Matthew. What many don't realize is that the lions share of what we work on in these halls is not controversial. Most laws passed with overwhelming bipartisan support. No matter what our political party were all here because we want to help our state from for citizens to reach their full potential is disheartening that some only want to focus on what divides us withdrawals in the most campaign contributions. What attracts the most regressive vision what is sensational enough to sell most newspapers and television advertisement members as we consider the task ahead of the start of the session, let us remember all that we can accomplish when we work together and let us remember that all all that can be achieved as we continue down this new path for our state and labor to fulfill the promises we made were constituents. So what lies ahead for the state Senate over the next two years. The coming session will maintain the budgeting and spending discipline and the commitment to progrowth tax policies that help return our sleep to good fiscal health. Let me be clear, we will not, under any circumstances returned to the failed tax-and-spend policies of the past but gave us the mess that we had in 2011 will continue to look for ways to reduce the tax burden on families, small businesses, another job creators, helping them keep more of their own money will continue efforts to reform and improve public education for students and have already committed to raising average teacher paid $55,000 over the next two years will remain focused on providing a bright future for children and helping build a capable workforce that will attract businesses will do more to simplify outdated job killing rules and regulations and foster a better business climate, with the goal of sustaining North Carolina strong job growth and will continue building state reserves to make sure that North Carolina is well prepared for the future. Across the hall in the state legislative building the North Carolina House of Representatives elected Republican Tim Moore of Cleveland County to a second term as House Speaker seems to me that North Carolina has always existed with a little rivalry, and yes even subdivision, but in the end there's always much more that unites us there robberies East and West different basketball teams competing NASCAR drivers, political parties, you know what, and even different types of barbed but in the end we are all North Carolina. In the end we have goals for our state that are much more alike than they are different, we won't job creation and growth. There are so many things that make our state attractive to new businesses and relocating businesses.

We certainly need to continue to make necessary reforms to continue producing even more jobs. Citizens in the private sector are driving investments. The more people to work and grown our tax base to keep growing. We must maintain our commitments to tax reform and relief past balanced budgets and cultivate a workforce that is career ready, educated, and increasingly innovative Moore described his goals for helping the state's economy is critical that North Carolina continued to develop a diverse economy to attract investment and remain competitive is my priority work with each one of to make North Carolina the most competitive and proper's prosperous state economy in the nation. Further, our state needs a dynamic education system that serve students with the tools they need to lead North Carolina into the next decade. We must work together to help our students achieve our school systems to achieve in our school systems, community colleges, universities, charter schools succeed at every level in a new era for education and North Carolina and thanks to our commitment to the hard-working educators first-year teachers North Carolina will at long last, make at least $35,000 a year and we continue to work to bring the average teacher pay up around state. We make great strides. These past two years. House Speaker Tim Moore reminded colleagues of the importance of sound government budgeting practices.

We have a duty to conduct our government and the responsible and prudent manner in which families and businesses manage their own finances plan. Plan for unseen events and repair for times of me in this last budget we prepared. We had a rainy day fund we went. We had a rainy rainy day fund with what happened this fall with the floods that ravaged Eastern North Carolina members. We will soon face important decisions that affect the financial security of the public decisions that will influence the future of our state issues requiring us to weigh choices that impact the economic totality of our great state and the protection of our citizens will come before us. I pledge to you members and citizens of North Carolina. We will make those decisions together in good faith with the priorities of our people first. That's Republican state representative Tim Moore recently elected to a second term as North Carolina House Speaker also heard from reelected Senate leader Phil Berger will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades.

The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business. We say enough is enough that it's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives. You can count on the John Locke foundation to watch out for your interests.

The special interests. We would be honored to have your help in this fight. John Locke.org and make a tax-deductible donation. Right now the John Locke foundation where fighting for you where fighting for freedom, welcome back to Carolina journal radio and Dina Martinez North Carolina soon to come home to a major league soccer franchise. Our next guest advises all of us to follow closely the news that Charlotte and Raleigh are indeed buying for a team. Why, because it could come at a price tag for each and every one of us. Julie Tisdale is the city and County policy analyst for the John Locke foundation. She joins me now welcome back so we know that major league soccer is growing all over the country. Olive and the world is really in love with soccer. Carolina's population is growing rapidly, so it seems like there could be a nexus there could be suckers very, very popular kids are playing soccer and I live very close to YMCA and Saturday mornings. It is just full of kids playing soccer in the Carolina rail Hawks now North Carolina FC have been very successful so it is certainly it certainly growing and it could be right for a major league soccer franchise that's possible, even writing about this and it appears that we now have two areas of the state, two groups of people. Apparently you are interested in maybe bringing a team to North Carolina.

Tell us about the proposals that's true said that the first is that one in Raleigh-Durham that Carolina rail Hawks now North Carolina FC. They changed their name. They're looking to become a major league soccer franchise there pretty well established organization and a gun owners group that actually is prepared to put in pretty good amount of money they're submitting a proposal to MLS. The other is Charlotte which announced a few weeks after that North Carolina FC group that they would also like to get a major league soccer franchise that's kind of being headed up by Bruton Smith and his son who owned the Charlotte motor Speedway and he's looking for a partnership with the city and the county to build a stadium in bring the team there.

Do we know anything about whether or not either of those two groups and have in their proposal some sort of public money that they are requesting. We do know a little bit. The proposals are due to major league soccer at the end of the month said there's still a lot of that a lot that's in the works. We don't know all the details yet.

What we do know is that Charlotte city Council met a couple weeks ago in a closed session. We don't know exactly what happened there but we do know that, for instance asking for $50 million from the city $50 million from the county and then he would put in another 50 million himself to build the stadiums that suggest the stadium cost which would be $150 million in Raleigh, Steve Malik, who owns North Carolina FC has said that he and and his third ownership group is willing to put up the money themselves first stadium also need to be some help from the city or the county for things like parking, or some infrastructure and on the details are quite clear on that now as you been writing about this and looking at those details.

Which one do you think is a better deal for taxpayers that the use of the leased taxpayer money is a better deal. I think for taxpayers. The very expensive undertaking which is talking about stadium costs right now but there's $150 million fee for joining the league as well and then we get into the cost of actually running the team and hiring players and all staff and all of that. This is a lot of money. Were talking about got wealthy businessman investors who want to put money there and think that they can make money on a franchising that's great for they should do that proposal like silence.

That's talking about a lot of public money upfront just to get the stadium built really concerns me that fits taxpayers on the hook for it and it before needing to go to the government for money that presumably means it's a venture that private investors don't feel good about. Perhaps we ought to take that as a warning about the serve wisdom of that investment for taxpayers as well do we have any history any examples either within the legal or perhaps another sports about to what may occur if something if it packages put together and taxpayers are part of it. Well there's a little damp and lots of varying experiences kind of okay.

It's not a disaster. It works all right places it's been terrible and probably the worst is the Chicago fire. They have a stadium in a little suburb of Chicago not far from the city at all. It was dealt with hundred percent public money, and it has been an absolute disaster.

They lose three to $4 million every year they seen their credit rainy ratings dropped the little village has city whatever is Dave King. Tax rates go up to pay for this three to $4 million in a black hole that is this team. The team hasn't been very successful.

They haven't been able to attract businesses to the area when they first launched, they said all the same things that we typically hear about the sorts of ventures. This will be this will trigger all kinds of economic development, and other businesses will come back just haven't materialized. There's evidently one gas station and that there's nothing else near the stadium so it clearly has not been the beginning of a lot of economic development for the area. It's been exactly the opposite. I think common sense. Julie tells us that no investor or whether they're doing it completely with their own money or are group of investors and money or whether it's a group that has some private money in public money they don't want to go into something thinking that is gonna be a bad deal. Who would want to do that, but they tend to rely on these studies that are always very optimistic about what is going to occur since we seen this a number of times it makes you kind of wonder why they aren't scrutinizing these impact studies more before they make these massive commitments does make you wonder that I asked that question a lot and yet having professional sports is kind of appealing to a certain extent. Cities kind of hear what they want to hear. So the idea of having a sports team is exciting. Also, cities are looking for something they want economic development, and they're not sure what their options are.

Say somebody presents the shiny proposal and that can be can be pretty thing examples where it's okay to show the example where sales have gone to get high and there's been some development around the stadium and it sort of works.

Now I'm not sure that they really make back the hundreds of millions of dollars. You can see successful franchises and so I think that that's very appealing, and certainly for someone like Bruton Smith who is putting in $50 million if he can get the city to put in the city to put in 50 million in the county for 50 million that lowers his risk. That's really appealing to all kinds of incentive to try to get the city on board and argument right there is is kind of an appealing one. To some people because it can be presented as this is a partnership for all in this together and yes there's private money. So were not trying to take you taxpayers or anything like that. So there might be people who think that doesn't sound like a very bad idea.

It's a partnership, but the major beneficiary, if this takes off is going to be Bruton Smith. Not so. I think he can put that money for it. If you want to. I'm not sure we want to ask all taxpayers, including people who really are struggling. You have parents who are trying to feed their kids. People that don't make a ton of money but the house in case of property taxes or renting in our paying higher rents to pay for their property owners, property taxes, and this affects everybody. So I think that we really want to be careful about spending lots and lots of taxpayer money on a venture that may or may not benefit the community that you mentioned that the proposals are due any time now, so I take it you're going to take you look pretty closely at these and I'm really looking at this proposals are to be doing some more work on this issue and we should have a report coming out late February willing at this in more detail will have you back to talk about all the details on that. We been talking with Julie Tisdale. She is the city and County policy analyst for the John Locke foundation and if you like to read this current report that were talking about. You can find her research brief at John Locke.forget her name is Julie Tisdale, Julie.

That's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay Donna Martinez join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke to learn more about the job donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development. John 1.call 18661665546361 airline sponsored radio