Carolina Journal Radio No. 724: Solar industry’s reliance on taxpayers highlighted

From Cherokee to Currituck from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko guide during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. North Carolina's premier higher education watchdog has changed its name to learn why the noonday honors former two-term Republican Gov. Jim Martin. Some state lawmakers want to take an in-depth look at the way taxpayers fund the state's public schools you hear details of a new task force.

It's designed to address that very topic free speech is under attack on college campuses across the country, including North Carolina, but the news about official campus speech codes is pretty good. You learn why bus will explain how North Carolina has seen benefits already from a recent reform. It's designed to help scrap old and unnecessary rules from the state rulebooks. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us the Carolina Journal headline. It is called the Public utilities regulatory policies act as a federal law that forces public utilities to buy power from electric power plants that are fueled by renewable energy. Now, this law is quite complex, but one of its outcomes is really pretty simple. North Carolinians are paying more for power when cheaper sources are actually available Carolina journals and danwei was an associate editor for the newspaper has been following the story he joins me now and welcome. Thank you, why did you get interested in this federal regulatory act, which is commonly known as purple will this is among the items that I cover under my regulatory coverage for the Carolina Journal certainly is a topic of great interest in the public and they also had a committee meeting House energy committee where this was been discussed so that my alley, so at this legislative committee meeting what they talk about why was it on the agenda will that was really kind of a primer for lava legislators. This is horribly complex series of regulations that involve renewable energy.

The name alone is complex or some political purple for short and they were getting. Basically it educated and informed on how this federal law affects state public policy as purple law gives states a wide degree of latitude and how they can implement and what were finding out as North Carolina has very generous benefits for renewable companies under this law that will have to be this generous infection. Duke energy officials were actually at this legislative committee meeting and they were talking about this how generous this is explained to us what the import of that testimony was well and the very basic level what happens with these generous subsidies and contracts and things are available in the purple law of the belief is that this cost the ratepayers more money in their monthly bills ratepayers being you and me. People pay the electric bill. Okay, so that is the kind of the bottom line notion here that because of, in part at least, this federal regulation in North Carolina being required to comply with that, through public utility companies that they end up buying renewable energy sources that cost more and then pass that cost on to us right.

Also, if you pass on the no so there are a number of ways that happens, one thing Duke went out is that we have a 15 year contract on the purple law here. This guaranteed fixed term rates for the renewable companies now these rates are only available to this with the call standard contract and those rates only go to a facility that produces 5 MW or less, so anything between 5 MW and 80 those are negotiated contracts but they have to give a guaranteed rate to those smaller generating plants. North Carolina didn't actually decide to sell what the rate is going to be to purchase this renewable energy is drawn from a certain statute, so that's one of things are Duke says maybe it's time. Now we look at this on this purple law first went into effect in 1978 in the Jimmy Carter administration at the height of the oil embargo and loud concerns about was our future energy situation will look like him so one of the things that the arguments raised the ministration did was try to look at alternative sources of energy so we could be more energy independent.

Duke officials are at this set hearing and they're talking about this. What is their interest in this. Why did they come to testify well. There are number of reasons why they're interested in this one course being the cost are the ones who have to pass those costs to the consumers so they were actually looking out for the customers.

Well, let's what they're saying, you know, the renewable folks would say that they're looking out for their own best interests.

And therein lies the rub. Indian rights controversy talk a little bit more about that well.

Obviously, everyone has a stake in the day and so the renewable companies will we need these things to be a level playing field with you the big monopolistic energy giants the energy companies they will. There's a lot of problems with this. You number one being mandated to do anything. There are some remedies they would like to see done one reduced to 5 MW guaranteed fixed contract, a 1 MW they would like to see things more free market base like competitive bidding. Instead of having to give what's called an avoided cost rate of these renewable plants avoided cost is what the service competition formula. Basically it says that these utilities have to pay a certain amount of money to equal what they would have paid if they had to build that plant that the renewable companies did or if they had to purchase that energy that they need elsewhere.

So what the utilities are saying is that if we have to do that avoided cost if we bid these out on the market, we would get a more accurate market base price them so mandated policy and I think it's a good example Dan of how first of all your excellent reporting on this and it's all available Carolina Journal.com but it's obviously a complex story of complex regulation, but when you kind of that. Try to push aside all of the nuts and bolts of this at least one state legislator looked at this and and this is part of your story and said you know this just doesn't seem right. We should be doing something about this tell us that what his concern was in. Jeff Collins represents Nash County is chairman of the energy committee and he wasn't the only one there's a lot of questions being raised. Now as more mortgage comes to light.

These these laws been entrenched for a long time now and so some of the manifestations of these are just starting to percolate through the legislature in the slot questions being raised in this all relates to renewable energy and the push not only North Carolina but around the country to take a a better look at developing like solar and wind and things like that. Yeah and what Duke and others are saying is that because of these mandates sometimes are actually having to purchase electricity from these renewable generating plants that they don't even need and under the purple law they don't have any control over that they can't pull a lever push a switch at any given time is okay we don't need you now know the ramp you up in there that's another one of the reasons why they think if they would go to a more competitive bidding kind of a process they could get what's called the dispatch ability rights where they can control the flow of electricity so there you plants the nuclear plants of the gas plants.

It actually cost less could be used more and they would only add these other systems and is a needed play. Make sure you understand this seven.

The utilities are required to buy a certain amount of their power as renewable sources, solar and wind and things like that and you're saying is sometimes they say they actually have to hi power that they really don't need in order to serve their customers. So I'll add all of this together. Dan it sounds to me like I get my bill in the mail. It could be lower will and that's what the critics would say, and you might need an army of forensic accountants to figure out how all this works and that's part of what the legislators are trying to do is all kinds of writers in another incentives and programs in their Duke will tell you that they all interplay what you can't sit down and look at your bill and, in fact, that out because only things are hidden and all these other areas. What is the next step in this Dan well I think you're going to continue to to look at this and some folks are pushing to maybe look at place on the reforms that Duke is advocating and course renewable industry will probably continue to fight it so other states are actually doing some reforms on this because they are dealing with the same thing as a whole reduce their contract lengths from 20 to 2 years and they said what they found is to get a better rate for their customers and what you say with his mentor Carolina Journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina Journal.com tackles those questions every day.

The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina Journal imprint each month and on the web each day at Carolina. Journal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public events@carolinajournal.tv and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina Journal radio and print on the air and on the web.

You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com welcome back Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guide the challenges link to higher education in North Carolina are changing the state's premier higher education watchdog is changing as well. Joining us to discuss the changes to people closely connected to the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal. One of them is the center's president, Jenna Robinson, the other the center's namesake, the Hon. James G. Martin, former Gov. of North Carolina.

Thanks to both of you for joining us. Hi Mitch. So first of all, it would start with Gov. Martin. This is a group that differ years was known as the Pope Center for higher education policy, now it's the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal. Why was that something that you felt comfortable and interested in being involved in having your name connected with this group. The use of the scary thing about Lois quite a number of courses and for my colleagues on the board for come up with that name in my absence. I was absent from those meetings with those being discussed and awarding them to discuss it. Frankly raise whatever concerns the head. Oh, outside of my heroes. I would be offended and hurt my feelings hurt, but it's quite another particular because I have great admiration for Joy John Pope and know you were people that I got to know well enough. First was working to come to Raleigh is going and they were good supporters and of admired the work that they've done. In particular, the various foundations and think tanks. It has created. In particular, serving on the board of the Pope's letter made it all the more meaningful to me. Of course they didn't require that I had to die first. What about those good what about most important thing of course is academic renewal part that shows where were going and what is it about the work that that that the center now the Martin Center has done that made you say yes I can. I can time my name to this group.

This makes sense to me well up and following it closely as a board member and before that is reading the magazine's articles meeting some of the people who were doing the work of sometimes I might even have a disagreement on some particular point where all of the same will and everything that only made one noticed my goal decision, but it's been very creative and very effective.

And now with board of governors paying attention to what I think is going be very helpful to so this is a group that differ years operated under a different name now.

It is the Martin Center, the James G.

Martin Center for academic renewal Jenna as the president of that center does this open up some opportunities for new ways of thinking or acting on issues related to higher education. The one thing that it is done immediately. That's going to be helpful as there won't be any more confusion anymore about us being the foundation or the center.

We are clearly Martin Center. We work exclusively on higher education issues, and for a very long time. There's been existing confusion about which is the foundation which is the center who does what and I think clearing up that confusion is can be immensely helpful and we've Artie seen it in the way that people are treating us realizing this is a higher education think tank.

This is the exclusive on work that they Dale and said that's been wonderful.

Also, of course, Gov. Martin has been immensely effective as a governor is respected in the academic community and by the government by other leaders by newspapers by pundits and so I think having his name attached to our work will lend it on a certain certain something credibility from absolutely background absolutely.

What are some of the main thing that will hopefully write exactly what are some of the main things that the Martin Center's going to be focusing on moving forward moving forward. Some of things that are going to be most important to me this year. The first one is free-speech course that his always been very important to us that were seeing some new opportunities to pursue protections for students regarding free speech. It's something that I know the board of governors is very interested and the public is very interested. I think there's been a lot of publicity regarding attacks on free-speech students being arrested, passing out constitutions on other attacks on free-speech and so I think all of that publicity and kind of the mounting attention that it is gotten means that protection first for free speech will be an issue that we can get some traction on this year on as always, I'm interested in transparency and I'm hoping we can get more information in the hands of students to help them make better decisions going forward. I think that's especially important given the amount of debt that students are taking on and like free-speech. I think it is gotten a lot of attention. It makes it ripe for reform. That is the voice of Jenna Robinson. She is the president of the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal. You are also hearing from the namesake of that center, the former North Carolina governor.

The Hon. James G.

Martin, for those who don't know, in addition to your political career you had a background in higher education for longtime professor at Davidson College when you talk to Mr. there for 12 years. When you follow my turn our heart. Would you look at where things stood in the world of academics at that time and where things stand now, are the things that the rise to the to the forefront that make you say we really need to make some changes or to reassert the importance of some of these basic principles that were around when I was teaching Joe touched on one of the changes is been very very profound and very troubling. But even back in my day go back 50 years. There was the issue of the academic freedom then it was particularly oriented toward protecting the rights of faculty members who had left wing views because colleges were being attacked by donors who didn't want to hear from someone who is defending the Soviet Union. Davidson took the view that as long as That's separate from their academic responsibilities that didn't try to indoctrinate students on their views that they would be protected in their teaching role and they wanted to write to the newspaper they could, but even then there was a case where one of my colleagues was so shunned as a political soft professor buys faculty colleagues because he said he didn't go to a respected academic institution. He got his economics.

The University of Chicago's thesis advisor was the faux fellow named Friedrich Hayek who couple years after Dean Miller left to go to University of Georgia but Hayek got the Nobel Prize so it became respectable left after he left, but that should not have happened.

Especially at that school.

When it goes on all the time now is as the faculties and departments like economics will want to remove anyone who is not a Keynesian but I don't want to have the opposite point of view intrude into their domain. Same thing with political science, sociology of the fields of that sort have to ask our time is running short. But I will ask both of you Jenna. First of then Gov. Martin. Are you excited about the opportunities that are tied to this name change. Absolutely I think that the time is right for reform in higher education. I think this name change is coming at exactly the right time for us.

Gov. Martin well you I'm more excited about what his vision has been doing and will continue to do the rattle a few changes to call attention to things that should not be happening in higher education through a set standards that it would be better for our institutions to try to return to new their academic excellence. That is the voice of the Hon. James G.

Martin, former Gov. of North Carolina and the namesake of the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal.

Also heard from that center's president, Jenna Robinson. Thanks so much for joining us think you will have one Carolina journal radio. Are you looking to make North Carolina more free the John Mott foundation is in here are three things you can do today to help us make it happen. First, know the facts visit John Mott data work for data analysis, interviews, and more and read Carolina journal.com to learn what government is doing with your money. Second, influence the debate invest in the John Locke foundation's work with a tax-deductible donation you can get it done in lessthan92@johnlocke.org and third make North Carolina more free by sharing the message of freedom. It's easy when you visit John Mott.org. Click on shareable's download past messages to freedom. Dear friends, print the messages and mail them, or if your savvy computer user share the message of freedom on Facebook and Twitter know the facts influence the debate and share the message three things you can do today to help us make North Carolina more free. Get started today@johnlott.org North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lock foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else.

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Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio. Some North Carolina lawmakers want to take an in-depth look at the way public schools are funded Republican state representative Craig Horne recently explained a proposal for a new task force for the purpose of this bill is to establish a joint legislative task force to study various weighted student formula funding models and develop a new funding model for elementary and secondary schools in North Carolina. Why is a study so important at this time last fiscal year, the Gen. assembly appropriated $8.4 billion to K-12 public education approximate 39% of the entire state budget, we do so based on the system of allocations or what many of us refer to asylums, some 37 I believe silos that we used to allocate K-12 funding. Examples of those silos are classroom teachers, textbooks, frustration, total disability flow well small County just named a few allotments for my position somewhat dollar concept of self is not fully understood by many legislators would loan the public. What with this new task force do one explained first review crime allotment system and study in-depth various funding models based on a weighted student formula versus ADM or allotment formula. This committee is to determine a base amount for funds necessary to cover cost of educating a student to identify the student characteristics eligible for weighted funding to determine the amount that base funds are to be adjusted based on the student characteristics and actually make a decision on which funding elements should remain outside the base funds and study other issues that come before the passwords are relevant to this. There's been debate about who should serve on the task force Horn is open to adding school superintendents, financial officers, possibly County commissioners shortly recognize that ultimately has to be our decision were talking about a lot of money and a lot of kids lives. A lot of adult lives. This is a big deal. This is going to be a heavy lift. So the any opportunity we can have to ensure the broadest possible participation without talking to every opportunity should be pursued in my view state representative Craig Horne.

He's discussing a proposal for a new North Carolina legislative task force would study the state's school funding system and make recommendations for changing funding formulas in the future will return with more Carolina journal radio.

Are you tired of fake news. Well you won't find it here at Carolina journal. We don't make things happen and we don't presume or assign motives.

There's no simpler way to put it then that were proud to say that honest, factual, rigorous journalism is the Carolina journal way our reporting team is focused on accountability in government and policymaking. No matter which political party is in power, and regardless of the person taken to task in the story at Carolina journal where beholden to the truth and to transparency. Unlike fake news lies, innuendo, questionable sourcing all meant to create controversy not inform the debate. So the next time you're confronted with fake news log onto Carolina journal.com or pick up the latest print edition you'll find compelling news reporting from a team that knows what it means to be real journalists committed to truth Carolina journal. You can count on us for the facts. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got one of the largest obstacles to free speech on college campuses in recent years involves so-called speech codes foundation for individual rights in education or fire recently released its latest spotlight on speech codes.

It helps people determine which campuses are doing a good job and which ones are falling short of the mark when it comes to limits on free speech. Robert Shipley is Executive Director of the fire. He joins us down to discuss the report. Welcome back to the program. Think of her heavenly before we get into some of the details, remind us what is a speech code fire to find the speech code as a policy, and it can be any kind of policy that regulates the expression of college or university students are often found in harassment codes, but they can also be found in codes about how to express yourself on the Internet or over email in residence life manuals about how what you're allowed to do and say in the dormitories and we classify the money using your red, yellow and green light system with red light speech codes being laughably unconstitutional at public universities and extremely against the promises of free speech the rate by private universities. Yellow light codes are ones that can too easily be abused and are still unconstitutional, and greenlight schools that we would say they don't have speech codes anymore. Greenlight schools are ones that have no policies that could reasonably be used or abused to punish speech that is me, the greenlight schools are going to be perfect to me they may push me over speech without having those policies release the books.

How common are the speech codes is something that we see on many campuses across country. Other hugely common. I think if you had the red and yellow light tools together it comes to little more than 90% of all schools in the universe at all. All the schools we write which is which is most of the big ones we write about. I think it's 440+ of the largest and most prestigious schools are colleges and universities in the country so that covers most of the students out there your report though takes a look from year to year at changes in those red, yellow, and greenlight schools what to the 2017 report tell you in terms of changes, well you know the headline take away from this year's report is that we're finally really making some serious headway against the very worst speech codes red light speech codes we started doing this report back. And I believe it was 2006 might've in 2007, we found that 78 or 79% of of colleges and universities, both public and private had a red light speech codes. As of this year.

That's down to around 40% last year's 50%*49.9 so it's it's down 10% a year by far the fastest fall in the year and that's due to several factors, a lot of fires work and also due to other House Judiciary Chairman Bob Goodlatte from Georgia who wrote a letter to the red light school saying you know it's time to fix your policies, and many of them did contact us to work on that. So it really is thanks to a concerted effort that the schools of seeing. Okay, there's probably need to do something about. That's right.

And fire is also the last four years engaged in a focused litigation program to sue really the worst offenders herein and start to move the incentives towards actually respecting free speech before that you know it, given the given the incentives out there and sort of the political leanings of everyone involved.

Frankly, it made more sense on a rational level. If you take this principle out of it to have the speech codes into say oh well, this person said something bad were going to punish them.

So we want to reorder the incentives of the Constitution actually gets a little notice when they're making those decisions. We are speaking with Robert Shipley who is Executive Director of the foundation for individual rights in education of we talked about sort of the national trends. How are schools in North Carolina doing well. North Carolina schools are quite a bit better-than-average. I believe were down to 40 red light schools and North Carolina and when I said I know I've been saying schools lot. I'm talking about higher education which is which is fires area. Most of the rest are yellow in a North Carolina does pretty well. I would greenlight schools including UNC Chapel Hill and Duke are both greenlight schools and that's due to again a concerted effort, I think by organizations here in North Carolina like popes and are now the Martin center like John Locke and of course your fire and I live in North Carolina as well and so you know it's it's deftly been a goal of mine to see my home state improve on that. So we've seen improvement in terms of speech codes does that also translate into improvement overall in the protection of free speech on campuses or are there other threats that we really ought to be watching out for as well will adeptly has led to a decrease in people being punished for speech alone there have there have really been improvements there and UNC is actually great example what I started fire about 13 years ago, it seemed like a year wouldn't go by when we would have a problem at UNC Chapel Hill and since then since they went green.

I don't know that we've had any. However, there are sort of societal factors that are causing problems. Students now are more ready than ever to demand that the authorities WHICH are usually the other administrator sensor. Other opponents we see speakers being shouted out or prevented from speaking as we saw last week at UC Davis and of course that the dis-invitations graduation speaker, so unfortunately while students really used to be the most reliable boosters of free speech on campus. It's it's hard to know whether that's still true. So it sounds as if the speech code campaign and of itself has been pretty successful is fire looking at now sort of the next steps. Speech codes we still want to attack them. But now we have to focus on some other things to do, make sure the speech is preserved. We are mean is as sort of an order is that effort is as that was, I think we now have a bigger task ahead of us in dealing with a culture that no longer puts as much value on free speech on college campuses and we actually have a two-year program funded by the John Templeton foundation and the recalling projects to work the really better with hit stands for, but we are actually to be researching into going to high schools and figure out what is going on their wire students were coming in the college now so I guess were accepting of this idea that you they can get there and people are gonna tell them what they can say or think that seems be a change to us and so we want to try to figure out what's going on and also start to address that as well. Why this is such a big deal. Why do we need to pay attention to protecting free speech. Well this stuff doesn't stay on campus.

I think a great example is the sort of thing we see in Europe where increasingly there are crackdowns on free speech in a variety of different ways Europeans a very different idea. And that's because of of years and in decades, frankly, of having this different attitude.

So when students have this attitude on campus there to take it with them off-campus and we will start to lose that fundamental American freedom if were not careful about the law is right now very much on the side of free speech, but that won't stay up all the future judges and attorneys don't think it's a good idea to you in looking at the state of affairs right now have some optimism about where things are heading or is sort of a dicey situation now. It's a dicey situation about which I think I'm ultimately optimistic because the direction I think culturally was wrong.

I think there's more recognition now that maybe this wasn't a sustainable direction to go in and I think the success of folks who pushed policies that would compromise free speech when you get to the point where you're talking about actually punishing people for things like micro aggressions, which are totally unintentional.

No insults or could be perceived as insult.

Think a lot of people get the sense that this is probably gone too far, and they're willing to say let's back off one person is going to be watching the situation very closely in the months and years ahead is Robert Shipley. He is Executive Director of the foundation for individual rights in education thanks of a joint flex rendering will have more on Carolina general radio just if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state. All in one place North Carolina conservative.com one-stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement had North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina Journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analyst plus opinion pieces and reports on higher education. All of that from the Pope Center for higher education policy commentary and polling data from the Cintas Institute news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council.

That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Log on today. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. Carolina is seeing success with a proven tool for fighting redtape. That's thanks to a rules review process that was put into place several years ago here in our state.

John Sanders has been looking at the program, which by the way, is set to perhaps get even stronger in battling the thousands of rules and regulations that slow economic growth. John, of course, the director of regulatory studies at the John Mott foundation and he joins us now. Welcome back. Thanks, first of all, John. We talk about rules and regulations. We use that phrase a lot. I know in and that is your beat, so to speak. You write about it gives examples of rules and regulations that North Carolina would impose on citizens could be anything regarding how you deal with your property, how how you deal with your employees. If you're an employer incorporates so many aspects of our lives in so many things that we do a small business. What reporting requirements we have to make with the state government.

Things like that. So pretty much any industry has some sort of rules and regulations attached to it so it in our state we could talk about anything from automotive industries to the farming agriculture and agribusiness area to retail business operations, so it's pretty much everything. Yes, and there are so many numbing you mention thousands of know you. There's over 20,000 rules of its finding an actual count is actually difficult. There's no way than the one person could keep all of that straight and we should remind folks that were talking about the rules that are just coming from the state of North Carolina that doesn't involve anything from the Fed or any local governments or anything like that. You know it on month state of North Carolina administrative rules okay so we have been hearing for a long time because we been reading you and talking to you that we need to take a really close look at a lot of these rules and regulations could be that some of them are appropriate and necessary, but it could be that their stuff on the books that really don't need to be there and several years ago. Wax started into that process and give us that kind of a review of what's been happening.

Yes, in 2013, the Gen. assembly passed in the governor McCrory at the time, signed the sunset with periodic review as part of the regulatory Reform Act of 2013. What that does is every 10 years and agency rule has to be reviewed and so that's the periodic review portion and and if it is not, then it automatically sunsets means it's repealed under review, the agency can say that it's necessary and if no one objects if they don't collect a certain number of public comments on a debtor that are on point, then it's considered necessary without substantive public input which means it automatically starts the clock right back over for another 10 years if they get enough people to object, then it's considered necessary with substantive public input and then has to be re-looked over and and treated as if it's a brand-new ruling go through the rules review process again as if it's brand-new and otherwise if it's declared unnecessary than it's going to be repealed. You are talking about three different categories and I think we commonly are you been referring to him and other folks have as well as like the three buckets right of rules okay so as of the end of 2016 and early 2017. Give us a sense of where we stand in the review process and has anything actually been wiped away. So the last numbers I've seen at the end of December.

Not quite half of the rules have been looked at so far and about 12% or approximately one out of every eight have been repealed have been declared unnecessary and they're going to end the great proportion of them are sort of the middle bucket. The necessary without substantive public input. Some sorry with input so they're going to.

They are going to automatically start over. And then the remainder are going to be read looked at as if brand-new so it sounds as if we got some that were looked at and the folks who did this said, you know what, there's no reason we we need this. Let's just get rid of him. That's that 1/8 right and then there's a big chunk of them that they've looked at and said well we don't have a bunch of objections or anything like that sort and start the clock over they get to go for another 10 years, but John then there's that other bucket where they're going to get a little bit more intense scrutiny. Tell us about that bucket go on whether to get more intense scrutiny. That's that's not a problem. I misspoke a second ago because I didn't use the term buckets and so II got tripped up the necessary with out substantive public input is the middle bucket and that's where almost 62% of the roles fallen under and that's means they're just going to start right back over the estate rules review chairman, testified before the Gen. assembly and suggested we really need to get rid of that category because we really need to look over all of the rules and not have sort of a an easy out every 10 years. We really really should re-examine all the rules to make that stronger, stronger reform and I do agree with that because it's so easy for these things to get lost.

It's sort of like having a messy toolshed, as is the way I look at it and throw some stuff in there and after a while he could covered with dust. You forget what you got back in there if you could drag everything out and take a look at again decide if you actually still need them and if you're like, has been to me that only happens if you happen to move and you are forced to actually clean everything out and then you take a look at some of that stuff and say I want to keep it but other staff may not even remember it's there. Yes, and in fact that's sort of the situation that occurred when the person in charge of this program was talking about it to legislators have actually been instances John and my right where the folks who were asked to review rules didn't even realize they were there and no disrespect to them, but it's just this process, you been talking absolutely that's on some of the testimony that came out from the rules review chairman was that in the course of doing this. Didn't realize was things are on the books so it was a necessary thing for them to actually go through what was the reaction from the legislators who are hearing from this person who's in charge of the program were they interested in this or did they think this is kinda much ado about nothing. I think there is some interest in it.

There's a bill in the Senate that some looking at that right now I'm not sure where it is in the process.

At the moment, but it seemed like it had generated some interest so at least there are some legislators who think that this is important enough that we should pay attention to it in and perhaps strengthen this and have a little bit more intense scrutiny of these rules going forward. Already she said 1/8 that's been 1/8 is ended up being wiped from from the books down when you are writing about this, giving us an update on this set this look at the root the rules. You also made some other recommendations about how we can improve things going forward. I like to talk little bit about those you talked about more of a focus on the costliest rules tell us about that. The costliest rules are ones that are still passed by administrative agencies. It's my contention that that legislators who are answerable to the voting public should be the ones making those deeply impactful rules, laws limit talking to John Sanders with John lock foundation. Thank you all the time we have for the program. Thank you for listening Bill joined me again next week for another edition of the Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John one. Learn more about the John lock foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke call 1866 JL left 166-553-4636 nation airline is nearly more foundation airline sponsored again