Carolina Journal Radio No. 726: Tax Day reminds us of recent N.C. reforms

From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio like Muskoka during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state does the long-term American economic forecast called for prosperity or peril. Wake forest University economist will help us answer that question. Some state lawmakers want to give North Carolina voters the chance to lower the constitutional On state income taxes. You learn why you also hear criticism of their plan nearly unanimous legislature is supporting efforts to strengthen the rules regarding use of North Carolina's rainy day savings reserve to hear the details.

Plus, the editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal joins us will assess the North Carolina political landscape in the wake of the repeal of controversial house bill to those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us. She asked the Carolina Journal headline. If you haven't yet filed your North Carolina income tax forms you got just a couple days left before the official deadline which is April 18 this year. As you fill out those forms want to make note of is that the personal income tax rate has gone down over the past several years.

That's just part of historic tax reform were all enjoying here in North Carolina. Becky Gray is a senior vice president with the John Locke foundation and she's here to give us some perspective on tax filing day Becky. Welcome back taxes. Yeah, to talk about filing, but we do like to talk about the reform that we seen over the past number of years make changes in a variety of areas. Let's talk first about the, the personal income tax rate because that's what everybody's paying attention to.

With the tax filing. Those with what we found every year on the personal income tax and you done your Wyoming. We have reduced the personal income tax in North Carolina from a three step marginal rate where different levels of income paid different rights, which was confusing it was on a sample, the higher income earners paid a higher rate. But what they've done is they have reduced the personal income tax to a flat right so everybody pays the same right now. Obviously, people who make more money pay more under that right.

But everybody pays a flat right so it is lower and it is simpler and the flat rate is lower than any of the right tour before, so everybody who pays personal income in which Anna now pays a lower rate than they did before. In addition to that they have increased the standard deduction that amount that you don't pay any taxes on right off the bat. They've increased that significantly to $17,500 so you get a bigger tax break from the very beginning and course the people that are most impacted by that are low income earners Becky for the last. A number of years.

As long as I can remember we have heard people and a lot of discussion here at the John Locke foundation about tax reform in the principles upon which it that reform should take place. Some people are calling for a flat tax and what you're describing is a flat to hassle you now have it here right so folks may not realize that that that rate is lowered, but as you said, it's really helping a lower income and middle income taxpayers a lot because that zero tax bracket exactly said those are people who in some cases, don't pay any taxes. Now what this these reforms have done and some proposals moving into the new year. Some things are on the on the table would move more people off the tax rolls in time you like that don't pay any personal income tax, of course, these are low income workers low income earners said they are the ones that really really receiving the benefits of that but for all of us. It's a simpler leader lower tax rate for personal income but let's not forget to. They've also reduce the corporate income tax right they have made some taxes off the books entirely. The death tax.

The estate tax on the earned income tax credit has been moved off and replaced with I think a much better system.

Under the standard deduction that we mentioned, I'm said there's a real effort to not only reduce taxes but make it simpler for us to understand and also getting rid of some taxes. One thing that we know from studies as the more taxing options there are, the higher the tax burden. So part of this is not just lowering taxes.

But, it's simplifying things, consolidating moving some taxes off the books entirely, allowing people to keep more their money. Becky, some folks might be listing to us right now in kind of a scratching their head and saying okay will yeah we all want them a tax reduction but what is that mean for North Carolina's economy which occurred well. What's a card and at it's important to talk about this in terms of not just the tax cuts if you're going to reduce the amount of revenue that's coming and you also gotta reduce spending. So what we saying, as in conjunction with lowering the tax rates, lower taxes, we've also reduced government spending only prioritizing things, identifying what the core functions of government are streamlining really getting our fiscal house in order. Now, in addition to that we also had comprehensive regulatory reform. So were getting regulation off the backs of businesses, entrepreneurs, citizens. That's a part of it to and didn't looking at the money that government does spend where's that best spent where the wisest investments. Where's the biggest bang for our buck if you will, and was saying those investments in education, forcing those investments in infrastructure so again what you're doing is providing a well skilled workforce for businesses who were now looking at North Carolina because we have fewer regulations.

We have a lower tax base energy policy something else. It certainly comes into this is we keep energy costs low. All of these things are attractive to businesses to expand move into North Carolina create jobs and with job creation. We have more taxpayers. So were saying a real revival of air economy strength of our economy here in North Carolina. All of these things together and the tax cuts is certainly a big part of that.

But all of these things together have resulted in a very vibrant North Carolina comic Donna over 400,000 net new jobs had been created, North Carolina since we have undergone. These changes that that up mention what you've mentioned is really historic tax reform and and here's the thing that damn some folks may not realize. I mean, this is really tough to do.

We be talking about tax reform for years and years and years in North Carolina and these are major changes and now other states are looking at North Carolina for the very reasons you describe saying how these people really did it right. How did the legislature and the former governor get this done on bold leadership basically is what it is really putting their nose to the ground stone. We provided that the John not an edge. We provided a tremendous amount of data and support for those decisions. We knew that these kind of changes would work because we've saying the economic studies we've saying academic things which saying something's other states have done right. Something that other states have done wrong. Also, we really went back for dip back in history across the country. Looking at how things were done made recommendations and it did it. It is taken bold leadership in some cases, the corporate income tax is an example of that. What we did is we put in revenue triggers to ensure that as the economy recovered that further tax reductions it we can get ahead of our headlights if you will. So this was done very thoughtfully. It was done with a great deal of determination and with facts and data behind these decisions in these reforms and what we saying as it's paid off, it's worked. North Carolina is one of four states that has a revenue surplus this year. In addition, the job creation. The other things that I've mentioned so what were saying.

Moving forward is during this budget cycle.

We are saying the general assembly considering further tax reductions, further regulatory reductions again shoring up the education investments that we've made the infrastructure investments that we made, ensuring energy costs are low. All of these things are building on each other and what were saying is a robust growing very vibrant economy. Now we know that not only are other states and other governors and legislatures looking at what were doing and trying to replicate the formula in their own states that we have national organizations, one in particular the tax foundation without rankings of the tax freedom in different states and North Carolina has basically catapulted up those we have. We've gone from 44th to 11th in the national business tax climate rankings. The reason why this is important.

Again, we want to do is want to grow businesses in North Carolina. We want businesses to choose to come to North Carolina because of this environment that we've created to expand their business to grow their business to bring headquarters so that you have that that I and in communities across North Carolina. This is happening.

It's very exciting. I'm very proud of our work at the John life � and to be big part of these decisions that have been made so as folks are looking at the last couple of days for getting those forms together. If you haven't already filed just kinda file away a mental note that you are paying a lower personal income tax rate as part of these historic tax reform so we been talking about with Becky great who is senior vice president at the John lawn foundation. Thank you, thank you stay with as much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business.

How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina journal.com tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each day@carolinajournal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public events@carolinajournal.tv and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca is our economic future. Cloudy or bright ask a range of pundits and prognosticators, and you're likely to get a range of answers. Today we put that question to Robert Weibel's professor of economics at Wake Forest University. He recently addressed the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury Society on the topic. The future economic peril or prosperity. Thanks for joining us for having me super so I guess that title is based on a collection of essays that dealt with this topic tell us about that yet. So I you and the other coeditors of the independent review asked a panel of economists broadly defined once was economy what's society going to be like 50 years from now and is explained in the introduction by I became a grandparent, nose thinking what is likely to be when my granddaughters my age 50-ish little 50 years ago and so will he brought them together.

Generally, people were optimistic. So our subtitle is economic future economic peril or prosperity and I guess the answer is yes.

So prosperity probably but maybe peril because most of the authors put some caveats.

You know, things could turn out badly and here's how it could.

What is it about this outlook of the future that makes them think it's probably going to be good and I would say most simply just look at history. The American economy in the global economy have been growing pretty well for good while now, and we think we know why we think it has something to do with a good combination of of places countries having good incentives in place property rights. Those kinds of things will government other than also. We give very good incentives to our innovators, especially to come up with new technology is new technology that drives economic growth and so I guess there's some ways that we could wreck that recipe. But if we keep it in place. We should continue to get the same result. And when you're talking about incentives. We should probably make clear that this is not targeted tax incentives or corporate giveaways for particular businesses, but with general policies that affect all you come up with a great innovation and you know what you get to sell it to people all over the globe and you make a lot of money doing that, but the other guys might be trying to come up with the same things and so you have to still race for you to roll things out and so were the big winners in the process is actually the consumers studies show that in the long run is something like 97% of all the benefits of these innovations go to consumers and small percent but it's still billions and billions of dollars and go to the innovators the producers themselves who come up with this. So I got a great incentive to keep doing that, you mentioned that most of the authors who contributed to the symposium had leased some caveats. What are some of the key things that could help lead to peril rather than prospect. Yeah so you know I think of the top the list. There's a couple of things one big one is what will call regulatory codes to a group whose life is because regulation right and just suffocate you eventually, and we we been through a regulatory upheaval recently was restart clip and the vinyl way we could have some pretty bad results. Another thing the course of people worried about is that we got these open-ended entitlements, especially for programs like Social Security, all those healthcare things so the US government. We know has been running up bigger and bigger debts. There's lots of countries around the world to follow the same path in history shows that once that level gets past a certain point that*good damper on growth as well or bad temper and growth as well know there's other worries that people have.

I'll throw in one of my worries of August 2 worries that I brought out in my editor's introduction. The first of those was we really seen a progressive decline of the family in recent generations, look at my statistics here 1959, 5% of children were born out of wedlock. Now the number is about 53%. More than half price we've seen what what Nicholas Evers Eberstadt calls the global flight from the family, not just men go like women starting to be like this as well and so the question is our children to be raised with. From an economic point of view and of human capital, both from a cultural social point of view, just a stable environment so they can be people who learn how to take care of themselves and learn how to support somebody else, not just the award, state, or something along the other big worry that I raise in my introduction is a public complacency. Complacency is an economic terms of normal good. The richer you get, the more you can afford to be complacent or get rich we can afford to be complacent were really getting complacent I think about the growth of government. It slowly sometimes readily take away our freedoms and no new generations coming on the night worry about the future just won't even know what freedom is what freedom is meant for those are my we are chatting with Robert Weibel's professor of economics at Wake Forest University. Also one of the coeditors of this new collection future economic peril or prosperity you are mentioning that the people who are approaching this were looking 50 years out or so. There's a lot of thought at this point about okay, forget 50 years and were things going to look like for the next few years.

With this brand-new administration.

A complete change from what we've seen over the past eight years in the US as you're looking at what are our incoming raft of politicians are looking at what are some of the things you want to see that would suggest to you that were going on the right path instead of where we have been in recent years, will I personally have been pleased so far seen in terms of no nominees for cabinet positions and those kind of things and that these are not fans of continued growth of government there to sit back and sober look at government programs and grown too much out of control and getting people all wrong incentives and therefore need to be pruned back. So obviously we see this with the big healthcare overhaul will see how easy it is to undo that, but there's just regulations all over the place. That's the tip of the iceberg in many ways. One of the biggest problems we've seen recently is a decline in labor force participation by able-bodied adults and us because there's so many programs in place that this incentivize you from going out and take care of yourself some happened you lost your job so you know eligible for these programs and some glue trap. You just can't pull yourself out of it and that's one of the main things are just putting all these people compete eventually.

Very productive on the sidelines and not able to tap into all of your great abilities will our time here is short, but to to encapsulate what we discussed. It sounds as if the overall outlook is pretty good as long as we don't follow the some of the straps is that good way of looking at it yeah you know if we can continue to solve our problems as we have we should be able to see continued rise in prosperity in the United States so people look back 50 years from now, hopefully, and say what were they worrying about just like we look back the people 50 years ago they had worries like over they worrying about.

We didn't end up facing this problem well of that is a good place to in the conversation. That is the voice of Robert Weibel's professor of economics at Wake Forest University also coeditor of the book future economic peril or prosperity. Thanks much for joining you will have North Carolina journal radio just about are you looking to make North Carolina more free the John Mott foundation is in here are three things you can do today to help us make it happen. First, know the facts visit John Mott data work for data analysis, interviews, and more and read Carolina journal.com to learn what government is doing with your money. Second, influence the debate invest in the John lock foundation's work with a tax-deductible donation you can get it done in lessthan92@johnlocke.org and third make North Carolina more free by sharing the message of freedom. It's easy when you visit John Mott.org.

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That's just above the state's current tax rate Republican Ralph Heise explains the player. This is a one opportunity to work giving a ballot measure put a real control on government and its authority to take your phone with the fear of this is that people know this is what the citizens of our state want 6% Is overwhelmingly in George class overwhelmingly missed by North Carolina. When you give people the choice of what the tax rate can be generally always choose a lower number gives you how I feel about most of our spending Democrats like Sen. Floyd McKissick oppose a new limit on income taxes. What we do with this bill is the limit. Those options in a way, disguising the smoke and mirrors because it really sounds perhaps good for someone to say is never to be more than 5.5%, but you tell same time transparency and honesty. Well, gotta get that money into the company's other sources.

We don't know if it'll be there or not. It means that maybe the hundred 60 categories of goods and services may be tax or that you may see your sales taxes go up to 10 1214% because you told him that and honesty and let them sit back and understood the complexities of the issues that we face may not be so quick to jump at a simplistic solution. Republican Sen. Andy Wells responded to McKissick's concerns were not limiting options were not limiting choices were not setting a rate on income tax. We are allowing the public to have a voice we're going to the public, and I'm sure there will be a campaign in the public will have your every disaster scenario that could possibly happen from the broadcast media in the newspaper editorial pages they won't lack for negative information, but they'll have a chance to make a choice. Some members are confident they will make the right choice. So members are scared to death those voters will make the right choice, but I'm confident in the voice of the voters. That's Sen. Randy Wells and his colleagues voted 36 to 13 to let North Carolinians decide whether the state should lower its limit on state income taxes.

The idea need support from the statehouse to reach the ballot will return with more Carolina journal rate. Are you tired of fake news. Well you won't find it here at Carolina journal.

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Welcome back Carolina journal radio average coca plans are moving forward to sit rules in place governing use of North Carolina governments Rainy Day savings reserve fund Nelson dollars the statehouse's chief budget writer. He explained the idea colleagues.

It takes North Carolina from frankly one of the weaker savings regiments of any state to what the pew Center believes and is analyzed will be one of the strongest.

What we are doing in this legislation is creating a savings deposit rule that is actually tied to revenue growth in the past there was no real connection there. In any real tangible way defines clear objectives and conditions for use of the fund that again was a weakness, North Carolina would we really only one of six states that really have no definition for that. This bill puts very clear definitions around that it establishes an evidence-based fund savings target so you're not just picking a number out of the air, but you actually have a rationale behind developing what that savings target needs to be and in this case, the idea is to build that fond not build it too much. But will it so that we can withstand 9/10 two-year budgetary calamities.

So when you think back and look at for example in half. This was so 0809 and that timeframe revenues from where they were projected to where they came in over $3.3 billion, and I know that some of the members who were here then are some of that were in leadership in some incredibly difficult decisions that they had to make and there was very little outside of what came from the federal government to do to help out with that scenario. Some colleagues wanted to even tighter restrictions. Republican representative Mark Brody offered an amendment. It would force lawmakers to approve a separate bill anytime they want to use Rainy Day reserves when you mix certain things together. You can have detrimental effects and for example just in chemistry you mix ammonia and chlorine. You can get some pretty nasty stuff while in life to. In politics, I think you can do the same thing you have an entity called a large sum of money and on the other hand, you have a room full of politicians and so what I what I believe is that sometimes can can create problems because sometimes politicians want to get out the money so although the process was set up to give him saying that in this particular case it would help us out by making it transparent.

That way everybody can see, including the public can see overtaking out. Remember this is a special fund. This wasn't something I just was put out there is a self created for a purpose and I think we are the public the opportunity to view what we are doing in the process of going through committees and hearings in and on the floor of this house, Senate representative Michael speciality supported Brody's plan. While it might make a little bit harder for a budget together for a couple extra steps.

It certainly makes it much more transparent. It makes it much easier to control and it does limit how much can be spent so that you can't take it and spend it all at once on another program, something we set this up for a reason less protected. I think this amendment does that it protects it for the purposes that we had intended to, and it certainly doesn't restrict you from being used for the shortfall, but it does restricted from being from from assenting out the bank because we want all kinds of other programs and things to spend money on health overwhelmingly rejected the amendment.

A couple of lawmakers objected to the bill itself.

One was Democratic representative Billy Richards respect what you're doing is so crucial that we have this assembly for is responsible is so important, but process matters, process matters, and respect for the other branches of government and the two things I will say the reason I cannot support this is this is not worth the paper it's written.

This is politics over social wall you're taking over global saving money and will politicize what were doing were making the wall say this is how Scott what would make the law.

We don't need this people know that were responsible simply people know the parties.

A party responsible, we don't need to do this we should work on environment. When you work collegiality between us. We need to go forward not backwards with this is not what is better suited Richardson specifically objected to a measure that forces the governor to set aside some funds in his budget for savings is a permissible statute governing so how does this budget changed when you change very important rule or word that permissive 143 we've taken from the shell.

Now I was to go over where the American way of separation of powers would guard that were very cautiously laughing. We take that as soon as we record the family trust changing that were from shell shell is a very very significant in the something that were insulting the government role is something we should do. Democrat John Autry of Mecklenburg County also raised concerns actually appreciate the efforts of this body and its commitment to putting money aside for Rainy Day fund to respond to nature to arson through hard times and economic downturns. That's that's very commendable. I appreciate that. And I also like the words of talked about taking care of the future of our children or grandchildren, which I'm lucky enough to have children and grandchildren.

My concern about this bill is that were not putting us up outside the proper resources to address what is the cause of a lot of the issues that we want to address by putting the Rainy Day fund. Aside and that is climate change. It would be irresponsible for us to take this step and not put like resources, aside to address the effects of the cause of climate change. Despite the objections all but a handful of lawmakers in both parties sided with people like Republican representative Dean Arp.

This is common sense and the puts in the wall strong financial principles of good government and fiscal discipline. This is about accountability to our children and being responsible with what we've been blessed with with a look to the future if you do not save for future economic terms, we will have to possibly cut vital and important government functions. This bill attempts to avoid that situation if we save responsibly now we can have a piece of mine knowing that we will have to make those tough decisions later on those tough decisions that cut those viral government services that we all believe in saving for the future is a basic financial principle that we teach our children so we got to practice it in state government as well. You been listening to debate about a bill to set new rules in place for use of North Carolina's Rainy Day savings reserve account will return to Carolina Journal radio.

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That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Log on today. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. After a little bit more than a year of controversy and debate over house bill to the so-called bathroom. Bill legislators and Gov. Roy Cooper reached a deal was just in time to meet a deadline set by the NCAA, which had threatened to not bring college events to North Carolina as long as house bill two was the law, but the repeal of that lot may not really be the end of things. Rick Anderson is the editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal Carolina Journal of course. Following this story very closely welcome back. Thanks.why isn't this over well is partially got over because there still is at least one lawsuit pending in federal court about North Carolina's handling of antidiscrimination laws, primarily against transgendered persons and so that lawsuit continues even though the motivating legislation is now gone and so we don't know right now is whether or not that the lawsuit in federal government. For instance, decides not to defend the position that it did under the Obama administration that complicates things for the ACLU and the other parties both lawsuit still is not completely over yet. It's also not completely over yet because a lot of the left-wing groups that were very much opposed to HB two are also opposed to the resolution that passed the Gen. assembly because they say it doesn't go far enough. They want the general civil not only to repeal a speech to but also to to implement a law statewide that would guarantee all of the antidiscrimination civil rights set-asides facility changes things like that that Charlotte to put into its local ordinance that was effectively repealed by HB two anybody happy with this, the business community is fairly happy with it.

The general assembly leadership is very happy with it because they are glad to have it off there off the plate now and not have to deal with it anymore. I think most of the sports organizations and send in boosters of these of sports teams, and people operates facilities that were having events that were rescheduled largely because of HB two are happy to get those events back in our lease to be able to bid for the beginner they couldn't even bid for these offenses always expand short effect that brings up the NCAA on the ACC. The NBA all of those organizations had had something to say about this some along the way this deal.

It was reached between the legislature and the governor came right before the NCAA had issued a deadline of sort saying if you don't do something about it since we don't like at our board doesn't like it to be the hopper for any of these events will react to that by saying well. Why would the legislature and the governor seed to some sort of a threat right from those organizations.

I'm deadly is that what they did or were they acting the best interest of the state. Well, there actually House Speaker Tim Moore joked that the NCAA's debt deadline.

The dental for the deadline. The board was planning to meet during the men's final four basketball tournament to decide the cities that would be allowed to bid for championship events from 1919 2019 through 2022 and the net that was little, especially during the final four. They subsequently postponed their board meeting for a few days after the HB to root repeal went through to North Carolina.

I hopper again for all that, but Tim Moore said after will the NCAA didn't really have anything to do with it so much, but that if you got the votes to pass something this controversial issue get out there as quickly as you can tell those fall apart and certainly that had something to do with it. The other thing that I do. That was the fact that whatever you think about house bill two regardless of the merits of the bill problems with the bill got to the point where house bill to whatever was in it didn't really matter was on the books and because the narrative revelation was because most Carolina pastels bill to North Carolina's estate full bigots at some point, the perception becomes reality. And so by repealing house bill to the state police was able to get that perception out of the wire. They will talk through waste and legislators then able to move on to other pressing issues such as developing a state operating budget and all sorts of other pieces of legislation anything from the other sports leagues.

He ACC the NBA, and he knows about the ACC even before the NBA before NCAA said they would reconsider bringing North Carolina back the ACC almost said okay were back course record in Greensboro. The big event for the state is the is the ACC men's basketball tournament which was moved to was already going to be played in Brooklyn for three years. This is the first year and the delegate was up, and here's what was to go after that.

And so now most likely what will happen is that it will the Greensboro or Charlotte will be hosting the ACC men's tournament for two out of three years would say speaking in Brooklyn. That is some empty seats yes yes because there's really no home team there. Syracuse is ostensibly on payment of several hundred miles away so that that was one of the issues as well as its it's difficult to get people to come to an area for arena. Even as spectacular as the one in Brooklyn apparently is for an event that really doesn't involve anybody place nearby because of the interest of the NBA, which moved the All-Star game that was supposed to be held this year from Charlotte to New Orleans the 2019 location for the NBA All-Star game is not been announced.

Apparently Charlotte is going to be back in the running to host this got a lot of attention, obviously, but there were at least a few state legislators who seem to be a little bit miffed that they felt that really it was undue pressure from particularly the NCAA. Looking at the nonprofit status of the NCAA. Tell us about that yes it was a provision that is still under consideration of the general assembly that would look into whether or not an organization such as NCAA, which is set up as a nonprofit under federal tax rules actually should have the ability to lobby legislative bodies or public deliberative bodies try to get a certain outcome and whether or not they should be able to do that if they have tax-exempt nonprofit status. More than likely, such moves are going to be problematic because nonprofits actually can lobby governmental entities to get strict on certain issues. If those issues are determined to be part of the core operation of the foundation of the organization.

For instance, if there was something to deal with the nonprofit status of religious organizations and churches. Churches most certainly could lobby to prevent that from happening because it has something very fundamental to do with them.

The NCAA's argument in this case would be protecting fundamental civil rights is something that is an issue that is very important to us because all or all of our institutions have to abide by those federal guidelines course in the case of house bill to the question was to his gender identity. Something is protected by federal law that still has been resolved is probably going to the Supreme Court's rights from portfolio be taught taking that issue up, but in this case it would be very difficult for nonprofit status of of what say a sports organization to be singled out for specific treatment of specific issues like this. Nonetheless, the issue of economic bullying is called something that's really worth looking into something that I think there's a little backlash against you see this is not the content on the different sports networks and things like that pushback possible lost revenue from advertisers and also pulsed possible lost viewership of the stations because the question that I think for any state not just North Carolina is what is potentially next. If a sports league text like something that a state legislature has done matter what it is. It could be something considered progressive something considered conservative who's next that's right that's right and not not just which organizations were of any sort of nonprofit membership organization to be involved in activities like we been talking to Rick Henderson. He is the editor-in-chief Carolina Journal thank you thank you all the time we have for the program this week for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez.

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