Carolina Journal Radio No. 776: Expert pans UNC study of teacher training programs

Cherokee ticker attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. North Carolina's gas taxes losing its effectiveness as a tool for funding state transportation projects. Your why you also learned about a controversial alternative. Some state lawmakers studying possible splits of larger school systems to hear highlights from their first discussion of the idea. Legislators also want a better sense of how much money local systems need to upgrade their school buildings.

Recent study highlighted needs and some of the states poorest districts plus will highlight sales tax measures on the election ballot in at least a dozen North Carolina counties. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martin has joined us with the Carolina Journal headline.

Every parent wants, and in fact expects to have an effective qualified teacher leading their child's classroom here in North Carolina and number of our universities actually have education schools where they train future teachers. The UNC system recently evaluated training provided by those schools.

Dr. Terry stoops of the John Locke foundation believes that that evaluation fell short. He joins us now to talk about it. Terry of course is the vice president for research. The director of education studies for the Locke foundation walk back to the show.

Thank you. Let's talk first about the genesis of the UNC system is report evidently they were looking at our performance kids performance on federal tests and they wanted to see why we were falling behind in some, in some cases yes research tells us that the most important factor school-based factor that contributes to the academic performance of a child is the teacher and teacher quality. So this is been something that's been on the radar special UNC system for as I noted in my piece that talked about these UNC report for about 100 years now we've been worried about teacher quality and for about the same hundred years we've had the same approach to the way that we train teachers not completely similar but but a lot of the same structures and and approaches that we have today are would be very similar to what we've seen, 50, 60, 70 years ago, so this is the latest in an ongoing effort to try to look at the way we train teachers in the UNC system and think and consider whether there are better models to train teachers to consider whether we are doing a good job training teachers, whether changes need to be done to the way we train teachers in the UNC system before we get into your views on that templates that our listeners know about these teacher education schools and in particular how important are they to actually making sure that we have enough teachers in our state was pretty complicated because if you look at the number of teachers that teach right now in the system in the public school system in North Carolina only represents about 37% are coming from the UNC system so that means that a whole bunch of teachers are coming from other places they're coming from out of state. They're coming from other types of programs that train them are called lateral entry programs where adults can go back and get their teaching credential.

They come from the teach for America Internet visiting international faculty. So it's a really complex matter to talk about teacher quality in North Carolina because you're not only talking about the UNC system training teachers, but you're talking about teachers trained in Pennsylvania, Michigan in New York who come to North Carolina simply because there are very few jobs in those states for teachers and so they come here in pursuit of a teaching career so we have to be mindful that when we talk about reforms, the UNC system but they're only going to go so far in helping us to improve the quality of teachers in our public schools and in fact based on on that. That's one of the reasons that you believe that the UNC system's evaluation of their teacher training schools really fell short of that, that's right because when you look at what kind of education is provided from the UNC system schools, you find a great deal variation.

First of all, you have some teacher education programs in UNC system schools, most notably UNC Chapel Hill and see states Appalachian and a few other schools are doing pretty good job of training teachers and then you have some schools are not doing such a great job so you have a great deal of variability within the teacher education programs themselves, but you also have to look at what kind of teachers were getting from some of these other areas, and fortunately we have research that shows us how these teachers perform the teachers a come from the UNC system compared to where they're coming from elsewhere, and so we can compare the quality of teachers were getting from these various sources fact in your writing about this Sam you focus in on two particular programs that are outside the UNC system. One of them being at teach for America, the other visiting international faculty tells about those programs and how they do compared to folks who are educated within the UNC system would teach for America does is to take college graduates. Typically, those who do not have an education degree and they signed him up for a two-year stint in a low income and/or low performing school and the students are usually high-performing students to graduate from typically prestigious universities, but they just don't have the credentials going to the teaching profession and so they sign up for teach for America left go through a rigorous screening process and if they make it through. They go through a equally rigorous training process before they enter the schools and become teachers visiting international faculty has a model of looking at those who have teaching degrees from universities abroad and bring them to the United States for up to five years to teach in our public schools.

Their visa will only allow them to stay for five years and they are placed in elementary, middle and high schools just like teach for America teachers about its time-limited in a very similar way and it's worth noting that there is a very rigorous training screening process for these teachers as well. So there's a lot of similarities between the visiting international faculty in the teach for America teachers and probably the biggest similarity of courses that they're not trained in teacher education programs here North Carolina.

What we know about those two programs, in particular in terms of the effectiveness of the teachers that the quality of the teachers as compared to those folks who are trained within the UNC system will research has been conducted over the last few years to compare how teachers trained in these various other places are performing compared to UNC train teachers shows that visiting international faculty and teach for America teachers are outperforming all of their peers. Those trained in the UNC system. Those train from out of state and those who train from alternative or so-called lateral entry programs. So by far the highest performing teachers we have in North Carolina are coming from these two programs that are outside of the UNC system. Now I do want to mention that it's rather small number of teachers that are enrolled in teach for America and the visiting international faculty programs, but when you look at student test score growth. They are by far the top teachers in the state. It seems then that the UNC system would look to those two programs to say hey, what are they doing that were not doing that appears to be leading to a higher performance, you would hope that that would be the approaches to look to see where the best teachers are coming from and then find ways to get individuals like that into our public schools, and I think to a certain extent that's been done in the general assembly and certainly Gov. McCrory were looking at ways to get highly qualified individuals into the classroom and Gov. Corey's case. For example, it was military, those who had been discharged from the military and were looking to transfer into the public school system is a change in career troops to teachers is is what that is called so looking at alternative routes for individuals to get into the teaching profession. One of the distinctive things about visiting international faculty about teach for America is the rigorous Street screening process is very difficult to get into teach for America very difficult to get in teacher education program abroad because they are much more selective in who they choose to go into these professions and so they screen out a lot of the individuals that really should be in the classroom and are really doing a disservice to kids and the same is is the approach, and in other areas as well. Looking at not only how they screen teachers, but how they train them to make sure that they are having good skill set in knowing the subject matter for which there teaching. In other words, the emphasis is not so much on the pedagogy innovate. The way that you learn how to teach it is on what you teach, and I think that's probably the way that we need to approach teacher education North Carolina going forward. Dr. Terry stoops. He is the John Locke foundation's director of education studies. Also, the vice president for research think you say when this much North Carolina general radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina journal.com tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each day@carolinajournal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina.

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Thank you very much, so the gas tax is something that North Carolina has relied on for a long time to deal with major transportation needs do you say that that not too far in the future maybe not next year. The next five years, but not too far down the line. It's not going to be delivering what has for years and years, yet were already seeing that and is not just in North Carolina. Fuel efficiency is getting better all the time for everything even look at pickup some Ackerman went to pick up the got 10 miles to the gallon was a miracle you know. And now somehow old pickups can get 10 miles to the gallon. So the technology is changing and the industry is out there trying to figure out how to get even more and electric fields original creditor how to make electric vehicles actually really work for people in you know in in real life.

In a sense not just that sort of at the margins and hybrid vehicles of already achieved his amazing fuel economy. The which is great in a lot of ways, but it is a challenge for the people who have to pay for the roads in the infrastructure because hybrids use just as much road as a nonhybrid, a Toyota previous in a Toyota Camry is the same amount road, but the amount of gas tax they pay is very very different.

And so we see a lot of states and we see North Carolina's is seeing a decline in gas tax revenues while even while there is an increase in using the roadway system and 10 years from now when that problem is is considerably worse than it is now is not obvious that the gas tax will still be an effective user fee mechanism to pay for the roads which is what it has been to date. So a lot of states are starting to look at what's a new user fee. We can adopt to replace the gas tax and during your presentation to legislators. You basically told him that there are two ways of going about this want is you try to find another user fee or you just throw up her hand to say we can't do that anymore have to pay for these needs out of the general fund right and that really is largely what it comes down to theirs.

We can buy some time and a little bit of wiggle room with some indirect fees. We imagine we pay a vehicle fee. We pay a drivers license fee. We pay a tax on the tires we buy things like that. Those add to the Department of Transportation's revenues to pay for the system but there are relatively small compared to the fuel tax and there also not as flexible. I mean if you wanted to make up if you got rid of the gas tax and you wanted to make that up with your vehicle fee or your license fee. You'd be talking about people having to pay hundreds of dollars more if in some cases may be thousands more.

Not a very palatable option for folks so and those things are not really directly related to use because if I had to pay a vehicle fee for buying a Toyota Camry just to stick with that example and on the drive 4000 miles because I live 2 miles from work at night.

Just don't know I don't have kids in soccer or anything like that is me and the wife and and that's I pay the same fee as someone who drives 20,000 miles because my job. I'm got a sales job and I have to drive around to all the different cities in my region of of North Carolina and yet they both pay the same fee so it would be a lot less fair. Went to that system. So the two options that are generally considered to be fair and economically efficient at this point is a user fee not based on gas but based on how we miles you drive so directly paying for using the road, basically or just go to general revenue and every year the transportation budget has to fight for funds against the school budget and everything else. There is no longer any connection between what we pay and how much we use the system which has some real disadvantages. We are chatting with Adrian Moore was vice president policy at the libertarian reason foundation. The crux of your presentation was really about the okay the mileage-based user fee for credit go for interchange.

We gotta find something that's an alternative to the gas tax, but still is user fee and you discussed the fact that there is already some work being done on this site tell us about yeah so if were going to replace the gas tax was something else we have to do.

Basically we have to do pilot projects to figure out what that is and the candidate that everybody's looking at these days and for which there are a good dozen pilots going on is a mileage-based fee so I was actually asked to talk about how do you do a pilot project on that what we know from all that experience about how to do this and I made a couple points one I said look you want to set up your pilot project to investigate the things that people are worried about so people worry about privacy that I want to system this can attract him so make sure your pilot includes a way to address that and as most the pilots have there's always options where nobody where you don't get track so people have a choice to do that unit costs of rural versus urban equity and things like that build that into your pilot and also have all the people who are going to be active in this decision participate have legislators from state reporters participate people from the industry. Taxpayer groups of people from from John Locke folks like that. Have them open space so they can talk about it from firsthand knowledge from the work that's already been done on this.

Have we seen some positive signs on a mileage-based beers and still something that's very early on and we don't really know out.

It's still pretty early, and we've had enough pilots completed to know that it's at least possible. It's possible to do it. It's possible to do it in ways where people have choices that are completely private. It's possible to do it with lots of different technologies.

What we haven't addressed are some of the tricky things like people who crossed the state border as part of their day-to-day or week to week normal travel. How do we keep the costs down because it's relatively expensive so it's it's got a ways to go but the thing is is you can't wait, you gotta do these pilot projects over the next 10 years so that 10 years from now, you're not sitting there with nothing when the gas tax really really starts to run out you went to that one state in particular, on the other side of the country is kind of at least several years. Along the way here and ramping up to actually replacing its guest. Yeah, that's Oregon. There were the first state to really get serious about doing pilot projects and they finish their pilot projects are in our on a slow and gradual process of replacing moving people into this system rather than the gas tax and that's kind of I think a crucial point is you know a lot of people worry will wait there is a surcharging you per mile, and I'll still have to pay the gas tax unless I buy an electric car and soap a key part of the system is it has to actually be a replacement for the gas tax. I would assume based on what you said the tricky recommendation to lawmakers in the state is do something that the pilot don't just sit back and say it's good to solve itself.

You start doing a pilot. There is right now the federal government is providing matching funds for doing these pilot so it's a good time to get started because he can save the state taxpayers money by getting some federal funding for it and start to answer people's questions and figure out either find out this thing isn't going to work and start working on plan B or figure out that it will work and start figuring out how do we create a system that everybody can live with one person who will be watching this process closely is Adrian Moore, vice president policy and libertarian reason foundation. Thanks for joining us today.

Give a lot more on Carolina journal radio just a moment.

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Support the John Locke foundation with the back Carolina journal radio hi Michiko got should North Carolina's largest school districts be split up. It's a topic. State lawmakers are considering Republican representative Bill Brawley explains this committee will be studying a question that comes up from time to time. There are debates in several counties where the school systems are too large and whether or not they should be broken up those debates tend to grow primarily on the basis of opinion, not fact the purpose of this committee is to study that issue and generate some facts to inform the debate as it goes full report we will produce will be intended to clarify the data on the questions we will be discussing hi been asked numerous times if we will be generating a bill to break up insert school system here. We do not intend to generate bills to break up specific school systems, and I doubt if we will have enough data at the end of this short process to even generate a procedure but we do intend to inform the debate clarify the issues that need to be addressed, because I do not see this debate going away there's discussions now within Mecklenburg County within White County within Rowan County within other counties on the school system structures still relevant to the society we have today. The intent of this committee is not to take precipitate action.

This is a process that needs to be examined deliberately and actions that are taken in the future need to be based upon fact and not opinion and it is the intent of this chair that are report will clarify the debate. Identify issues that need to be resolved and either confirm or refute some of the observations are being made today. Democratic Sen. Joyce Waddell responded to Brawley's opening statement into the clarity that you disguised as the purpose of this committee and I'm hoping that we will hold to that, and the community will not feel that they have been blindsided by that something else came as a result I want us to be fixing transparent and hold to what we say going to do is the purpose of the committee center. I appreciate your comments and I would agree with the medicos if we come out of this process with the feeling on anyone's part, that they were blindsided were not dealt with in good faith. I don't see how we could go forward with something that would be useful in improving the educational results for our children that state representative Bill Brawley. He's leading the committee studying ways large school systems could be split in North Carolina, will return with more Carolina journal radio with a moment real influence.

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Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities and improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future. The John Locke foundation were dedicated to making North Carolina first and freedom were dedicated to you. Welcome back Carolina journal radio hi Michiko got state lawmakers were trying to gauge how much money local school systems need for up-to-date school buildings. One way they tackled the issue. A recent report from the M GT consulting group focused on nine mostly low wealth school systems Edward humble of M GT spelled out the bottom line total for those nine districts that we came up with was over $630 million. The largest single of those was Harnett County at 239 shouldn't be a surprise. They were the largest district.

They have the most number of buildings they are off fast on pretty rapidly growing County so that shouldn't surprise any of us. Maybe another way to look at it is, what were the what were the greatest needs. If we divided by the dollars they needed per student in that district because we have a wide range of variety of size of district women. When we look at that the Ohio the two highest were answered in Jones County, which was 37,030 almost 35,000 respectively in those two counties on a dollar a dollar needed for the average need for all nine districts was 18,000 so those two had a much higher need on a per student basis is one way to look at that humble also look at the impact for local property taxes.

The district that would require the highest tax rate to meet this facility needs what the tax rate would need to be under current regulations in the in the state of the of current possibilities for raising the capital dollars in the state of North Carolina answered Rudy Jones in Scotland would all have to have a tax rate of over a dollar, five I want to just point out that state why the average tax rate is $0.66 state what the average tax rate in these nine counties rumor. These were primarily low wealth counties. So the average tax rate and there's those not in these nine counties is $0.90 would be up over a dollar five in those in the four that I pointed out here. Quite frankly, as you might guess we didn't see a lot of appetites for those kinds of tax rates in low wealth counties.

We didn't see that without under the current methodology for funding capital.

That's what it would. That's what it would require humble and his team reach some conclusions that might help North Carolina legislators. The first thing is you as you know, the majority of capital funding in North Carolina come from local property tax revenue not in fact, by statute, and in North Carolina it says that it's the it's the counties that capital construction is the responsibility of the of the county we have. There's a capital median identified in every district and and I believe that that would accept extrapolate to every county in the state of North Carolina, and in fact this study asked us to say to look at low wealth.

This friction is there a difference yes yes they right now they are paying a higher than average tax rate in order to to meet their needs. It would be significantly higher in most of those districts lifts the answer to that question that we were asked to look at is is yes.

That's Edward humble of M GT consulting group. He spelling out details of a recent report on North Carolina school building funding needs that report includes recommendations for state lawmakers. The first one is the fear is the short-term recommendation is that we we think of the state of North Carolina looks at me to look at a systematic review of school facility needs survey. It's right right now the other. The VPI works hard and asked for self reporting self reporting is at best a very inconsistent tool and not going to have any kind of consistency with which to make decisions which makes sense because the lot right now is that it's capital is the responsibility of the local county and local county commissioners, but if if were little look at any other ways to look at some other ways to fund capital needs for schools in the state of North Carolina. We need to have a more consistent methodology. That's the short-term recommendation.

There are other ideas. North Carolina could pursue. We think even under the current rules even under the current rules of the county's responsibility that is there a potential to establish a long-term revolving fund account at the state level. There are some states that have done this that local counties can borrow against that may be a reduced interest rate. Maybe it is based on what your wealth is in your county, but that they can borrow against that in order to be able to meet this needs is that in some states are in fact doing that farther we we think the state should look at some alternative funding sources, and that again II can't stand up and tell you what in North Carolina that would be I can give you examples of what other states have done state of Georgia has been very successful with what they call lost special purpose local option sales taxes that local county can the levy sales tax in order to use for some specific purpose is one of the major ones being capital construction of school facilities. The state of Colorado has dedicated a lot of their resource revenue and created a state agency called the best board which stands for building excellent schools today and they then allocate money from those resources so other some alternative ways for the state of North Carolina because the way it is right now it's very difficult, especially in these low wealth counties to be able to look to meet the need. Then again, a consistent methodology for for determining the need. It kinda goes back to that short-term one.

Let's figure out we would do that and then let's put that in place as a consistent way so that you know is whatever way that you might want to look at this and whichever way whether you lose a visa model like George or a model like Colorado or whatever you might want to do your will. You look at it in order to allocate funds you need to have some consistent way to say yes.

The need in this county is this and the need in this county is this and that's based on a fairly consistent methodology across the state and a key component for North Carolina.

As with every other place is setting priorities. I always like to say that we do this we do this kind of work all over the over the country effect in many places around the world.

I'm still waiting for the place that we do this kind of work, and we find more money. The needs haven't found it yet. Don't think I'm going to find in North Carolina. I've given up. Actually, we actually did a long-term facility master plan for the United Arab and we thought the other building islands out in the Gulf of thought that we gave the final report. They looked at us and said this is great. Great information we wanted. We can for the size I've never in a find a place that has more money than needs and so therefore we have to have a system of prioritization and and that's gonna need to take into account a lot of different factors. Obviously, the need.

Obviously, the ability for that local county to be able to to to fund that need Republican state representative Craig Horn of Union County cochairs the committee that heard humble's report. He sees some big issues for his colleagues to address there is that question the role of the state versus local rule the counties we heard about, on tax capacity.

We have not yet received and will be as yet not been made available to these districts.

This information in detail.

And that's going to be made available to them so that they can respond which would maybe perhaps some light motion and indicate what future action would be appropriate for the general assembly don't need to tell you the impact of these recommendations and the particular the impact of the needs that are obviously pointed out what I am suggesting that this is complex. That's state representative Craig Horn responding to a recent report suggesting hundreds of millions of dollars worth of school facility needs just nine of North Carolina's 100 counties. Lawmakers are looking at whether the state needs to change the way it pays for those school buildings will return with more Carolina journal radio commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards for reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money.

We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month. Our online daily news site Carolina journal.com has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you. Call 1866 JL FINF0 for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez this May's election ballot in at least 12 North Carolina counties will ask voters to decide yes or no to rating the sales tax rate by 1/4 sent question is what for particulate since voters have previously said no to the question. Julie Tisdale is the John Locke foundation city and County policy analyst. She joins us now to talk about the ballot situation. Julie welcome. Thank you. If my math is correct, roughly 2/3 of North Carolina counties have at one point or another over the last decade or so put this question on the balance of house. It turned out more often than not it is rejected. So you're right. 68 counties depended on the ballot. At some point hundred and 27 times that it's been on the ballot because in many of these counties. It's been on more than once, and only 31 have ever passed it so it fails a lot more often than it 60 county officials are persistent, they want that money. They are for set it on the ballot as many as five times now that I had on the ballot this year just had it rejected two years ago. So they keep coming back to try to get back order sent. How is it that they actually have the authority to do this because the folks might not understand that they do have to have specific authority to even ask voters about this right and the legislature gave that authority in 2007 it's blanket authority any County can put this event can put this sales tax increase on the ballot for voters to to make a choice about. It is only 1/4 sent. You can only do it once can't kind of course it in another quarter sent another quarter sent letter. Let it build so there's a special provision that allows counties to do this and they can use that revenue for whatever they want to use it for is not specific to a particular purpose.

We know in North Carolina coming up in just a few weeks in May. We have a primary election and so far your analysis shows that at least a dozen North Carolina counties are going to ask voters this question. Where is this going to take place. This is right across the state. So it's a large County small counties east to west but yet there are 12 so far that we know about could be more could be more. We not all the counties published their ballots yet and there is no central location where all of that information is collected and so we are. We're still exploring that were still looking at County Board of elections sites trying to find this balance to make sure we got the most up-to-date information that as of right now we know of at least 12 Julie do we have any idea among the dozen counties that what the justification will be given voters any sense of. Here's why we quote need this legislation specifically prohibits them from putting any of that on the talent and they can't hide themselves to any purpose.

That said, most of the time the county will come out and say we want this because I'm usually it will come as no surprise to most of your listeners. Usually the justification is schools and we need this for the children. We need this for investment in school buildings or tax or other kind of school supplies that are most counties that Mr. business 12 are saying it's for schools.

There are a couple of exceptions and Rockingham County is looking to expand a workforce development center at the community college. There's another kind of looking at volunteer fire departments. Most of the time they're saying that they're gonna spend it from for schools, but they don't have to. After it passes. They can use it however they want and Julie. We should be clear for our listeners that you're not advocating that people vote for this or vote against it.

What your wanting people to do is really to become more informed about when their local governments are doing with money right and I want people to think about the implications of this because it like a great way to raise revenue. This is not a tax that supplied evenly across the state. So it's possible that County raises it sales tax have a whole bunch of neighbors that have not raised the heirs that makes you the high tax expensive jurisdiction in the area can really hurt local businesses, so out it sounds like something that would raise little to revenue. Is it really can hurt that much is just 1/4 sent actually a can really add up to some significant money. The quarter sent that people click coupons for 1/4 all the time people really really does affect family household budget and also can really hurt businesses. If you become less competitive than the counties around.

In fact, you have been writing about them a couple of different research studies on these very issues. Tell us a little bit more about those studies are several and all of these studies reach very similar conclusions and that is that people will cross borders in order to save money on the sales tax and other such sorts of taxation on now.

The larger the distances are and that the smaller the cost of the item, the less people will do that. So that's pretty intuitive. You might drive 100 miles to my car in a lower tax area you're not going to drive hundred miles to buy a gallon of milk. So clearly there is some things a little bit on what sorts of items were talking about depends on how close you live to that line but there are lots of people that live in one county work in another.

There, in both counties every day and so people in back kind of situation.

The evidence seems to show will adjust their buying patterns to shop in the lower tax jurisdiction Julie when it comes to sales tax hide how to say for myself. I don't even look at the receipt. Frankly, I don't even know what the rate is in my particular County and shame on me for not knowing that, but am I reflective of most people said yes that is the case, the people over time. The editing study shows is that over time the effects diminish because people just sort of recognize that this is just kind of the cost of buying things. It's just sort of parted part of the deal that people may start to recognize if there's a real difference incident become aware of that line, you don't know what it is here that you might you might start to recognize if the grocery store to miles east is consistently that little bit cheaper than the grocery store 2 miles west, and that may be related to the sales tax.

The one place that I do notice it from county to county is if I buy the same line sub sandwich and a and lunch shop right and it costs a particular amount in one area and then you go to the very same shop and in a different county and accosted a little bit more right. Makes you wonder if that's a good way to compare Lily for big ticket items where people shop around.

Again, it's probably not can affect where you by your gallon of milk. But what these what the research says is that, particularly for larger ticket items on for major appliances, that sort of thing. People are much more aware of this difference is it can really hurt businesses in those sectors infected Juliet. I believe in some of your writings and some of the research you've looked at me talks about the potential for long-term and really negative impacts on on the economy in terms of business and hiring Councilman more about that. There were a couple of studies. Let me just check the details. There is a study out of the national National tax Journal in 2012 that showed a significant impact on employment payroll and hiring the most worrying thing. There was that one percentage point increase in the sales tax led to a decrease increase in retail employment to 7%.

That's a huge impact in employment in particular sectors. It's not right across the economy in those sectors of retail employment really be There was a recent study out of the Kellogg school of management at Northwestern University and it showed very similar kinds of results. It also said that there was a real spike in online shopping when the sales tax increased people trying to avoid paying the taxes interesting.

It's all about being an informed voter filling that ballot box, Julie Tisdale's report on this@johnlocke.org to headline the perils of increasing local sales taxes. That's all the time we have for the program this week on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez.

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