Carolina Journal Radio No. 823: Advocates mislead public about ‘Medicare for all’

From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I beach coca during the next hour, Dr. Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. The 2018 elections produced major changes in the national political landscape.

During a recent visit to North Carolina expert commentator David French offered his thoughts about the prospects for conservative policies. North Carolina government collects plenty of data that doesn't mean the data are used well to hear ideas from the state budget director about using data more effectively theater president of the University of North Carolina system has set out some key priorities you'll hear the amble delve into the recent legal challenges involving North Carolina hog farms. The state has rules regarding odors from farms made once oversaw those rules wonders how they play into the current court cases. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline Medicare for all it's being touted by progressives as the next great idea to expand access to health insurance and medical care but would Medicare for all actually mean zero premiums and zero co-pays. Our next guest has taken a look at the question he joins us now. Dr. Roy Coronado is a familiar guest here on Carolina Journal radio. He is the senior economist for the John Locke foundation right.

Welcome back to the show good to be back on.

We are hearing this phrase a lot, particularly as we get into the 2020 presidential last cycle so what you think you are hearing from folks when they use the phrase Medicare for all will first of all, and we sit with not meeting and that's Medicare for all, but I mean by that is the Medicare system that we currently have their using the word Medicare okay because I think people generally have a good feeling about right. You know they think it's doing well as a social program and all that and in people's minds.

Medicare is well you retire and then the government picks up your help care bills. But of course that's not it's an extremely bureaucratic system. The there. There are premiums thing go up very high. Depending on your income and almost a $500. That's an interesting point because a lot of people may presume wrongly that Medicare is quote free to them. Not absolutely not. Absolutely not. As I said, depending on your income. You can pay up to four $500 a month just for what's called part B, which is for your doctors and so on. Then that only covers 20%. So do people say there's no co-pay well at the if you don't buy supplemental plans. You can pay 20% of every bill beyond that you there are supplemental things which are mainly provided by the private sector are all provided by the private sector take lots of different forms, but the point is that down the private sector has a big role to play in what are called Medigap plans so I don't think this is what people have in mind when they say Medicare fraud. Let's take the Medicare system and just apply to everybody because I scream and deal with this kind of the implication when someone says I'm for Medicare exact guy thing most people would rather say I think of the stay on my employer's plan but that's not that's not what it is they are using or I would say misusing Medicare and I'm not saying Medicare such a great system but it is not what they are advocating.

They are plagiarizing. I think the word Medicare and the and and and using the good cachet that it has with the public to sell something totally different. I guess what they're really getting at a single-payer system, I think, in their mind there is the one thing you have to be cleared. No one's been very specific right, but the feeling you get is doing a single-payer system which means basically the government. They say single-payer right with his government. There right so the government pays everybody's health care bills right. The government meaning no taxes so that's what they I think most people mean and often the implication is, as you said at the top, no co-pays, no monthly premium so you just walk and again my card to get your help, care and there are a lot of problems with that kind of system but that's not Medicare is not even close to Medicare. What's the closest thing to single-payer that we actually have in this country because there is a system oh is the VA system, you had Veterans Administration system and we all know the stories of that in the problems and that is not that's beyond a single-payer system because it's that's more like the British healthcare system where the all the hospitals VA hospitals are owned by the government. The doctors get government paychecks. The nurses are paid for by the government so that is a combat truly is socialized medicine. The VA system is socialized medicine even much more than a single-payer system you mentioned the stories the nightmare stories that we have heard about to at least some VA facilities and mistreatment or lack of treatment of veterans of over the last couple of years there has been some pressure. I think the Trump administrations actually looked into this idea of trying to open up the VA system. People have other options to what would do what we want to do that say at the input for schools right school choice. What we want to get at one of things is being proposed and actually they passed the bill on things been implemented. I don't know a lot about the VA system, but what will the idea is to give veterans a voucher to go to private doctors to sort of a head private support doctors to the to the system and hospitals to imagine we mentioned that this seems to have this set cachet. I think as you described it amongst a number of a very well-known progressives these days, including a number of Democrats are seeking their party's nomination for president was interesting that in the piece you wrote about this which you folks can read it. John Locke.org you referred to California Sen. Kemal Harris.

She at one point was talking about this transformation of the healthcare and health insurance system and she advocated getting rid of the private health insurance industry altogether. It's interesting because if you want to single-payer. Then you have to do that because that is not a single-payer anymore right having the single-payer is the government right so if you are also allowing private insurers.

That is no longer single-payer right then you have multiple payers so it's it's kind of weird. Actually I think to say well I'm a single-payer system, but I'm a private I don't want to get rid of private plans will how does that work. I mean you have a single payer, you don't and she even backed off of of that down jealousy and maybe had some of her advisors or her spokespeople can't say well that's kinda not exactly what she meant. After rethinking it a bit because that would become a radical step for sure. Yeah, it it would, but everything they're proposing is is pretty radical. But if the direction it that we been going in for number years were here's one thing that I just don't understand the affordable care act Obama care that is the law of the land at this point, even though it's there some pieces that that have been dismantled, but I thought this was supposed to solve all these problems about uninsured people and access to care. Well the fact is, is that the people who supported that even Pres. Obama said. Ideally, I want to single-payer system and they saw that as a step in that direction and a lot of us knew that it wouldn't work regardless of what they were saying we knew that it what we saw as a strategy okay we put this in place and then when it falls apart right, we move on to single-payer and I think that's what were saying that it's it's interesting because it's mostly Democrats. Now who want to repeal and replace you think about it.

They're all sing this repeal and replace Obama care know what they want to replace it with is not something I would support.

I think it would end up with the all horrible results long waiting lines for for healthcare. Like other countries go to Kennedy after week six a month for for an MRI.

For example, I think we will see that in this country if if you go to go absolutely if we go the route because look, if you make healthcare free, you're going to get a much greater demand, and if you don't do something on the supply side. In other words, you don't have a lot more doctors. I am a lucky goat when there's not enough people behind the desk at a deli what happens.

You have to take a ticket right well that's exactly what would happen in the healthcare system because there's not to be enough doctors to handle all the demand and so on. My pleasure say with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina journal.com tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal imprint each month and on the web each day@carolinajournal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics.

No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public events@carolinajournal.tv and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio and print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko got conditions changed dramatically in the new year in Washington DC with Democrats taking over control of the US House of Representatives will that mean for the Trump administration for the prospects of conservative policy reforms. While next guest has some ideas.

David French is a senior writer for national review. Welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. So you have been a person who has been watching the Trump administration very closely praising them when praise is due, but often times looking at things don't Trump is done. It's a I don't really like where that's going. How was going to change for him with a House of Representatives that's already inclined to be against it right.

I mean, I think the idea of a conference of conservative legislative agenda right now is pretty dead on not just pretty dead.

It's dead, but there wasn't much of a comprehensive conservative legislative agenda to begin with Obama care repeal mostly failed mean the individual mandate is is gone. Tax reform did go through but aside from that, the, the proactive portions of the Trump agenda have been much more focused on judges, which because the Republican majority in the Senate is increased will be slightly easier, so expect the Trump Mitch McConnell Judge confirmation trained to jug to keep chugging along without the dentin Democrats being able to stop it and then you know some elements of what I would call temporary regulatory reform so a lot of people have praise the Trump administration for its rollback of some regulations for its regulatory restraint and I'm happy with that but we all have to remember that everything he does on the regulatory front is completely temporary because the next Democratic president can reverse it just as easily as Trump did what he did. If we want to have real regulatory reform. We have to have some thing far more substantial than a president either tapping the great breaks are pressing the gas in their given presidential term, so I would say you look at a little bit more modest regulatory reform that is temporary. You look at some judges their permanent and then you get a look at an awful lot of conflict and when I say an awful lot of conflict. I mean it. In other words, the Democratic house will rain subpoenas down upon the Trump administration, like rain falling from the heavens. It is going to be very contentious are going to be multiple investigations. Think of it like this way. I remember how the house very vigorously investigated the Obama administration when the Republicans had control.

The Democrats are going to do the same thing to the Trump administration.

Like I've heard the term subpoena can firm up a parcel of the leading Democrats is going to be in charge. Once what's that takes place. You have been watching the Trump administration closely. Do you think there is a a lot of opportunity for the Democrats to come up with much stuff not just not just fishing expert. The Trump administration is a target rich environment for subpoenas mean Trump himself, you know has withheld an awful lot of details about his own personal finances to an extent greater than other previous presidential candidate. Certainly, to an extent greater than Mitch with Mitt Romney was also a very very successful businessman Ronnie was far more transparent than Trump's been the Democrats are going to want access to a lot of those financial records and and only more so now that it was revealed that negotiations for Trump Tower Moscow continued well into the presidential campaign well after Trump secured the Republican nomination in the same time that he was praising Vladimir Putin them in these kinds of details are going to be fodder for a lot of investigation and so I think as let's put it this way as diligently as the Republicans investigated Benghazi. I think the Democrats will more diligently investigate a host of Trump issues from campaign finance the paying off of porn stars to to Trump's business dealings with foreign powers in a for example, the adjuster revealed that Saudi interest bought 500 hotel rooms. Premium prices at Trump Tower, Trump Hotel in Washington. This kind to dealings with foreign powers and and also of course all the Russia stuff so when I say a a a absolute downpour subpoenas. I mean an absolute downpour. Subpoenas we are chatting with David French senior writer for national review now checks and balances are built in to our system of government so having one party check into what the other parties doing is not anything for us to be overly concerned about what about this particular arrangement bothers you. If anything, you know what the main thing I regret about the midterm losses for Republicans was that some of the better and more promising young Republican representatives who were representing some suburban districts that frankly Republicans need to have four conservative reforms now and in the future were lost there.

There were there were's there were losses that should grieve conservatives who are looking to have a long-term conservative presence on the hill, and I think that's you know the power swinging back and forth. There's nothing new about that. It's far more rare in recent history to have unified control of government than it is to have split government so the fact of split government by itself is not as troubling to me, at least in the short term then is the identity of some of the folks that we lost on you know me a love I think is a rising star in the Republican Party and she's gone. Others gone and so I think that that that's that's a problem for the conservative movement now you people can run again and that pendulum can swing back again, but I think that that's a real Lawson and is for negatively polarized country. I don't think there's any way any more in this country that you can have divided government and not be very, very, very contentious. Some people are going to hear our conversation and they're going to say that David French is a never Trump permits all fake news, Trump's cannot be successful.

Lumber could have a great couple years. Why would you are, what would you say to them that would maybe try to convince them that perhaps what your say this is worth listening to.

You know, one of the things that I do is I will often ask up with the same facts into play. I said let's imagine the Democratic president did these things would you be alarmed by that. Would you be alarmed if the Democratic presidents ordered his personal attorney to pay off porn stars in the closing days of an election cycle and did so in a way that the Southern District of New York charged the attorney with felonies and the attorney felt pled guilty to those felonies with the alarm you in a Democrat and answers. Of course it would. We did alarm you, if a Democrat was involved in negotiations business negotiations with a hostile foreign power. While he was running president and did not disclose that to the American people will I know people would be concerned about that because I know they were very concerned about the Clinton foundations, and rightfully concerned about the Clinton foundation's actions that the FBI was actually investigating during the campaign and so if you were concerned with the Clinton foundation's activities and you should be concerned with similar activities under from the Trump companies any and all of the stuff is if you flip the party IDs and begins to come into focus how we should feel about this and this is but the bottom line is, when you're talking about people who have contact with hostile foreign powers in the Lyda law enforcement about that.

I'm not concerned about that is Republican. I'm not concerned about that as a Democrat, I'm concerned about that as an American, and it is not at all illegitimate in any way shape or form to take a look at contact with hostile foreign powers, especially when people lie about this context with hostile foreign powers. That's just counterintelligence 101 its criminal law 101 and we have to be willing to see the truth for what it is and react accordingly what we certainly as they say live in interesting times. We do have one person is good be watching this very closely. Is David French is senior writer for national review drawings thanks Raven on Carolina general radio just if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping.

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You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got state government collects lots of information or data, what happens to all that data. How does government use it. It's a topic state budget director Charlie Peru's mentioned recently to state lawmakers state government does not have a shortage of good data and a lot of data but a lot of times I think in this information age we don't have sufficient operational capacity really in my office and maybe some of the other central management agencies, as well as the agencies themselves. We don't have sufficient data analytics capacity is if we want to have this greater tide from strategic planning until budget and using data to inform it. You gotta have the really really smart people to pull down this data to do cost-benefit analysis to tie this together to let agency leadership, CFOs, a program people better understand what you got and how you can use it.

We just need to have more data analytics capacity and state government proper so were sort of thinking about how we would go about doing that, you know, most agencies do have data analytics capacity in some way shape or form.

Especially our larger agencies like HHS and DPS have their own units, but some of our smaller agencies don't so were thinking about how we can equip us in agencies with this additional capacity, and so were contemplating that as Preuss discussed the importance of analyzing government data Republican state representative Dennis Riddell chimed in and out of the analytics.

That's kind of the crux of it all is to make good decisions.

You need good data. How many of our agents collecting the kind of data will need going forward. Do you think most in one way shape or form are collecting the data that we need you know some of its no individual agency data some of its data that were required to collect most agencies and most of us the data is out there with it's not always in is in the proper format or capability to pull it down and to analyze it, and then to take it to the next level. It's not tied directly to our budget development system and so that chairman really sort of what were trying to work through is making sure that we collect the data, but then translating it until how it interacts that's going to take some time know it's not something that we can do overnight. There's no formal plan yet to address the issue of analyzing state government data Preuss expects to discuss the topic in further detail during the next state budget process will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with S. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got Dr. William Roper has shifted gears from leading one of the state's largest healthcare systems deleting its statewide public university system. Roper recently addressed the University of North Carolina's board of governors as interim UNC president North Carolina has been my home for 22 years public service has been vocation for more than 40 years this opportunity to lead the state's finest public institution is an unparallel honor call to serve is something I take very seriously and I intend to lead over the coming months. Some of the best advice I've received since I've accepted this position is simply this, I should do the job of president for an interim. What I should not act like an interim caretaker. The issues we face are too pressing for caretaker. I intend to keep this system's foot on the pedal and to do so for however long this board deems appropriate. Where does the UNC system go from here were one of the top university systems in the nation. We can and we will be the very best. Getting there takes stability planning and vision of had the honor and the privilege to lead some great public institutions before from the federal agency that governs Medicare and Medicaid to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta and to UNC healthcare here. This isn't my first rodeo. As they say, and I believe that great leaders have a three-part role versus to chart a strategic direction for the institution. In this board and this system have done that through the strategic plan that you all have champion.

It's a plan with the strong support of our chancellors and it's producing exceptional results.

Roper says some of UNC's numbers look good. The UNC system has surpassed its first year targets in 11 of 12 areas. Areas like low income and rural student enrollment research productivity and critical workforce degrees, graduation rates, and achievement gaps. I intend to carry this work forward and I intend to continue our focus on accountability are strategic direction remains the same.

Getting more students from more backgrounds into and graduated from college and doing so faster, more conveniently and more for portability affordably than ever before. Roper knows he'll have to focus on more than just a good strategy. If the first role of a leader is to chart the strategic direction and the second is to deal with the external factors that can affect it. Public institutions must be accountable to the public for the legislature to their governing boards to the median of the taxpayer and making the most of all of those relationships is surely my job being held accountable for our mistakes and our shortcomings is surely my job as well and helping prevent distractions for those who do our core work every day of teaching, research, and service. That's also my job. There are a number of people in North Carolina who care about higher education and we are very strong because of that, but we must have calm and stability. Regular order and process so that we can all keep our honor students. Our classrooms are labs are hospitals are communities, that's Dr. William Roper interim president of the University of North Carolina system identifies another key aspect of his job. My third role as interim president is simply management 101. It is to empower and give resources to the people doing the real work and then get out of the way and let them do their job yesterday. The committee on public affairs and the committee on budget and finance considered a strong unified set of legislative priorities that will help ensure we give our institutions the resources they need and that we then get out of the way and I'm encouraged by those priorities that include a number of items designed to make this university system run better. And when leaders have flexibility the kind of flexibility that private sector CEOs take for granted. They excel with this board's blessing on asking our elected officials to empower our system to rise to that level. I hope they will trust this board and its president to be held accountable but to do so with flexibility to lead effectively.

Roper noted a change the way the University is approaching its requests to state lawmakers are proposed priorities this year are also unique. It's the first time we presented a united agenda with our friends and partners in the North Carolina community college system and it's intentionally a systemwide agenda. It's not a grab bag of institutional priorities. We will speak with one voice in Raleigh. One voice united by the need to get more North Carolinians through college and to give them the opportunity that comes with a good education and a degree. As Benjamin Franklin famously said years ago. We must all hang together or most assuredly, we will all hang separately. Roper praised both his predecessor and the recently departed leader of UNC's Chapel Hill campus, strong leaders at every level from the classroom. The board room or why we are one of the best systems of public higher education in the nation and I'm here today, having followed some terrific public servants. Margaret spellings is a friend, a visionary leader and a towering voice in education policy are strategic direction is strong because of her and her team, and I know I speak for many in our state and saying I'm grateful she helped elevate the UNC system. During her time in North Carolina. Carol fold is a friend and an outstanding leader of an outstanding flagship who is stewarded and guided her university through treacherous waters from where I worked at UNC medicine and UNC healthcare. I'm grateful for her unwavering support for the cutting-edge research and work we did together in communities large and small, across our state. North Carolina owes Carol a debt of gratitude for her service and commitment.

Roper also mentioned a number of newcomers joining him in the UNC system's office including a former legislator and former top advisers to a Democratic governor at a Republican state Senate leader. They are Chris McClure runs better Jim Blain than Gerlach Bernadette Gray Little Charles Leffler, Carol Lewis and Andy Willis.

I ask you please to join me in thanking all eight of these leaders for stepping up and joining the already great team at the UNC system office during this transition. I want to think this board and the system again for the opportunity to serve of had the chance to meet many of the states leaders over the past two decades, but I look forward to meeting many more as I wear this new hat is your interim president. I believe education and healthcare are the pillars that can uphold and transform our communities. I believe it's true in our biggest cities and in our smallest towns and I believe that the chance to serve, to play a part in making an impact for the people of North Carolina is a great and noble honor.

That's Dr. William Roper interim president of the University of North Carolina system. In his first official speech to the UNC Board of Governors will return with more Carolina journal radio. What about commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money. We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month. Our online daily news site Carolina journal.com has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more.

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Call 1866 JL FINFO for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. Recent lawsuits over odors emanating from North Carolina hog farms have resulted in tens of millions of dollars in punitive and compensatory damages. One of the analysts following these cases closely is the former head of the state regulatory agency that oversees the rules about farm owners and he has lots and lots of questions Don Vander Bart led the Department of environment equality in the McCoury administration.

He is now a senior fellow with the John lock foundation Don welcome back to the show extra. I thought that there was technology in place that would mitigate odors emanating from hog farm semi-right or wrong will not only are there various technologies, there is a regulatory structure to implement to get to your question about 20 years ago there was an agreement that at that time, Atty. Gen. Mike Easley brokered where the industry funded research at North Carolina State University to develop cost-effective technologies and they did that and they even have a number of different steps levels of technologies that are available at the same time, there were those statutory requirement by the Gen. assembly to to attack odors and are regulatory scheme came thereafter authorized by that statute, which which was implemented by the division of air quality and that regulatory scheme is is very prescriptive and in fact what would happen. Don then if a neighbor to hog farm says hey there stuff going on here. I can smell it and this is such a problem that I need to contact authorities exactly what the rule provides is an initial series of requirements at every format implement by mid 1999. But thereafter, if there was a neighbor that that was unhappy they were to complain to the division and the division actually maintains to this day trained odor inspectors level. It is possible I know that expertise existed, but obviously it and they maintain their training for just this purpose and the purpose of the course to respond to complaints and to thereby substantiate what's going on this.

The rule provides that if those complaints were substantiated. There are a series of steps that the division of air quality will implement to ultimately prevent those odors and that gets me to my next question because listening to you describe this okay. There is technology and there is a regulatory regime in place that requires that technology in the mitigation of voters. Yet we have lawsuits. So what gives this is my question.

Apparently, you know, and there's no reason why under the common law people can, plaintiff can file nuisance claim. What's surprising to me is that this is going on in a vacuum.

When we have a regulatory regime. Let's look let's go back at the farmers were all the farmers required to do certain minimal steps to mitigate odors so you must comply.

It will have a higher order already requirements with her having to comply with, for example, that they have to ensure that when the sprayer gate that the that the spray does not leave their property.

For example and then there were these additional steps so so the question I have is are the are we to assume that these folks are in compliance. And if that's the case, the judge consider that or these complaints never get filed or to the division.respond which I'm sure they would have if they had gotten complaints. So where are we in this very prescriptive regulatory structure and what seems to have happened is that the that the common law suit that proceeded in federal court ignored these steps and I'm not sure what that's the big question so, to whom do we address that question, then, because it seems very serious. One would think that the hog farmers that are impacted or the attorneys representing those hog farmers would be making that argument. Hey, my client complied. It may well be the judge. And there have been two judges that are been involved with the first judge was one of families punitive damages. In addition to compensatory damages, and it may very well be that the judge disallowed this information from entering into evidence for reasons unknown and so the on appeal you're going to see if I'm that's what happened, you're going to see the representatives of the hog industry bring that up appeal so it'll be very interesting to see what happens next. Of these, there are still lawsuits going on at the District Court level under a different judge and they're going to be appeals going up on these previous judgments.

Don is there any interest in the questions that you are posing among members of the.

The current Gen. assembly or state officials or the current head of the Department of environment equality. There certainly is interest out the Gen. assembly of the question here is as if we were to have a regulatory scheme that is designed to prevent nuisance odors. Why are we following it and if we were not following it. Maybe we all ignore to repeal it. What is a nuisance odor. By the way, because it is there certain Iredell threshold of of smell that has to be met. Obviously, it's a somewhat subjective, but the language that is used by the courts. In fact, is reflected in the rule so another words, whatever the courts think it is the rule described it as I use the same words and it has to do with the interference of your enjoyment of your property, etc. we know that the agriculture industry in the NDM hog farming is vital to North Carolina's economy but I gotta tell you, if I'm someone who is currently involved in that industry or thinking that getting involved in that industry. I have big-time questions over. Will I be sued. We know this is exactly what you just brought up is exactly the reason that the time Atty. Gen. and later Gov. Mike Easley worked so hard to develop this solution because it was a burgeoning and very valuable industry to North Carolina and I think his credit. Ultimately, Gov. Mike Easley put together the structure of the been working this somewhat concerned that perhaps trial lawyers in an attempt to to gain large punitive damages may have ignore this have to wonder if the former Gov. Mike Easley is following this and wondering what's going on since he worked on this and apparently did a lot of work and came to what the industry and regulatory officials felt was a good solution would be interesting to know. I do know Gov. Easley has maintained a very keen interest in this industry and so should all North Carolina and it's not important what should happen going forward. You said they're going to be more lawsuits and you currently we have found some rulings that make sure that people are on the hook for millions of dollars, unless they those judgments are lowered on appeal.

So what we do two things I think were going to be monitoring the cases is a go on through the District Court level, and I know that some of the attorneys there are aware of this question and hopefully if the judge is earlier judge ignore this. Maybe judges will not.

Similarly, in the appeals process hopefully will take a look at this point in talking with Don Vandermark. He is a senior fellow with the John Locke foundation. You can read all of his writing on this issue and others at John lock.orc. Also he published.

Amen.

Not bad about this subject in the Raleigh news and Observer.

You can find it on their website. He is the former Sec. of the Department of environmental quality. He served during the Pam Cory administration now with the John Locke foundation.thank you very much that's all the time we have for the program this week. We appreciate you listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for more Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke done or call 66J LF in 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation airline is maintaining Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the more the station. For more information about the show. Other programs and services of the John line foundation John Locke.toll-free at 866 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across airline and our sponsors. Carolina journal radio. Thank you for listening. Please join us again next week