Carolina Journal Radio No. 827: N.C. Supreme Court sees major personnel changes

From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state has doubled Trump change the Republican Party will chat with an author who answers yes, his book is titled Republican workers party North Carolina lawmakers want to ban female genital mutilation in the state. Miller why a federal court order prompted their action.

Redistricting performers are pushing again this year to change the way North Carolina draws election maps learn details of their latest plans and will examine Gov. Roy Cooper's proposals for the state education budget. He wants higher teacher pay. He doesn't like opportunity scholarships. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline the most excited human being in the state of North Carolina.

That is how North Carolina Court of Appeals Judge Mark Davis described himself at a news conference announcing his appointment to the North Carolina Supreme Court Gov. Roy Cooper made that appointment and the move gives Democrats a 61. Political majority on the State High Ct., Carolina Journal has followed the changes to the court. Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief and he's here to give us the lay of the land on what's happening in the judicial system and politics. Rick welcome back to the show was not too long ago that Republicans held the majority the political majority on the North Carolina Supreme Court a big big turn of events in our stated big wins for Democrats right that there have the Republican majority is gone. It was for three up until the 2014 election, and since then there have been reversals now because of both the losses at the ballot box and archer of Chief Justice Mark Martin, we now have a 61 Democratic majority tell us about temp Mark Davis sent out currently Court of Appeals judgment just recently appointed to the North Carolina Supreme Court. What we know about him and why was he even in line for the appointment was serving all the Court of Appeals he was governor beveled produce godly counsel. Up until right until she left office the last years of her term and he was appointed to take that seal the Court of Appeals take that vacancy right before she left and that was a bit of the source of consternation because governors tended to do that, the general assembly actually considered legislation that would've change the ability of governors to make these affect recess appointments but he's been anointed twice, then will he was appointed the SSI midpoint twice actually appointed to the will twice replace Beasley both. In both instances, she when she was elevated to the Supreme Court after she won election talk about temp. Judge Chet Sherry Beasley, Justice Chief Justice Sherry Beasley that's and so he was. He took her place when she was elected to serve on the Supreme Court. And then when associate justice Beasley became Chief Justice that he was appointed take her place on the court as well. We need an organizational chart here in Louisville.

He did have to stand for election again. 24 one. About 60% of the votes we has been elected to this term. What we know about him is that while he is a Democrat.

He got the nod of endorsement from justice, former Justice Barbara Jackson, who lost her election race this past fall. She said that he was very qualified for the court. He was a fine judge and so she's a republic she's Republican. She was perhaps the most conservative member so interesting is endorsement he will now take a seat on the North Carolina Supreme Court. You mentioned a new Chief Justice tell us about that Sherry Beasley was was named to succeed Mark Martin, who retired from the court to go to Regent University Law school in Virginia to leave that law school and she is going.

She's the Chief Justice Ct. that they had the first few argued for the first few arguments with her as the chief and she's responsible not only for doing things like signing opinions but also she is the chief and he was the chief administered of officer of the court system in general and so there a lot of duties there that involve much more than simply hearing arguments, writing opinions and so that's where Mark Martin from all accounts and from all parties that Excel was in running the court system will getting the support of people, prosecutors offices, sheriffs, district attorneys, a clerk support folks who do the day-to-day grunt work in the court system and Mark Martin got very Very high marks for that.

So justice Beasley has a has a high bar to it to meet 61 Democrats politically in charge even though the justice system in the courts or supply obviously supposed to be nonpolitical, but double talk a little bit more about that in a moment.

So the one in that 61 equation is chest is that Justice Paul Newby now give us a sense of what's going on with him because there had been a lot of people who thought that essentially he was the next person in waiting to be the Chief Justice.

It has been the tradition when justice Chief Justice retires or leaves the court and that Chief Justice is of the same party as the governor that the governor would appoint the senior associate justice of that same party to take over as chief. The person with the longest tenure on the court, the most in your well that didn't happen this case. Governor Cooper's chose.

Actually, the youngest member of the court and Sherry Beasley to take the seat that was held by Mark Martin previously covered Democrat status may be a republic.

That's right. And so, although this happened earlier when Jim Martin was governor and was Republican and Democrat left court a good Republican to take the seats of this is not completely unprecedented. Republicans were upset because all the arguments they were making was that wealth you should replace Republican with Republican. That's the way that that happens in the legislature will remember the general assembly lease for whatever reason appointment is made by that same party to succeed until the next election. But then again the Constitution says nothing about that. So I mean no elections have consequences. The governor has absolute the appointment powers of the courts, and so he could choose who he wants and he decided to choose Sherry Beasley elevate her and then now pick up Mark Davis to take that open seat were making a lot of the fact that it is 616 Democrats, one Republican, and that might imply to people that there is some ideology and political partisanship that would be going on on the state's high court. Interesting that our colleague Mitch Coke I cohosted of Carolina Journal radio has done a lot of analysis of the opinions and his conclusion just based on opinions is that at least up to this point we have not seen a lot of partisanship political parties right most of the opinions that the court hands down are unanimous. There are some that are split, but there been very, very few split along party lines. In fact, there have been some 4352 splits but the Republicans block has held together with a democratic block is held together so they been very, very few split straight along party lines. Part of that, I think, is it.you Justice Martin very good job of of maintaining consensus. The court has a lot of leeway in choosing what cases it wants to hear. And so, in some cases, if you have a consensus oriented. Chief Justice then you can make sure that the cases themselves are going to be a definitive but not necessarily controversial or if they like what the Court of Appeals is done will simply leave their opinions alone. You may see change of this now because you do have a 61 Democratic majority and what you may well see is Chief Justice Beasley and new associate justice of the girls taking the court further to the left and what he may start seeing now are opinions that are 1661 with all the Democrat siding together, or perhaps just to Sam over the fourth was the most conservative Democratic justices siding with Paul Newby in some cases, and Mark Davis, maybe a bit of a wildcard.

Let's talk briefly about the campaign politics involved here with them. Justice Paul Newby because people may need to be reminded that we elect members of of the court here seeking to be running yes Paul Newby has Artie said he's going to run for Chief Justice of that is an elected separate elected position so all three of these new people, new positions are going to have to run for election 2020.

So justice Beasley will run against Paul Newby showed Phil Berger, Junior, who's on the Court of Appeals has said that he's going to run for the Newby seat, we may see Lucy Inman is a Democrat Court of Appeals run for that same seat and out of the Davis seat will be up for election, Tim Umberger, former Sen. had the Judiciary Committee, they will run for that seat as well so we gotta have three contested elections next Carolina Journal of course following all of the moving parts. We been talking with Rick Henderson as editor-in-chief. Thank you Rick thank you stay with us much more Carolina Journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business.

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I ever since Donald Trump won the 2016 presidential race pundits and prognosticators have been asking how did he do it on our next guest has a theory and it lies at the heart of his latest book, F. H. Buckley is foundation Prof. at the Antonin Scalia law school at George Mason University in the book is titled the Republican workers party and listen to the subtitle how the Trump victory drove everyone crazy and why was just what we needed to the program. Thank you for having me, so I gotta delve into that subtitle first before we get to the theme of the Republican workers party. How does your book tell us about that of the Trump victory driving everyone crazy and why was exactly what we need.

Well first parts is to drive everybody crazy wind was needed while he was addressing something that I think many people to clinic conservatives have forgotten, which is if you have a political message is something you have to sell to all Americans and catchers derive it from some abstract theories that you think were written in the sky. Rather, it's got to connect with ordinary folks contracted that he did that because he was addressing a problem. The conservatives are good Republicans and certainly forgotten, and others. The American dream and died the American dream was the idea that wherever you are aware of your come from you going to do okay and more importantly your children will have a better nude and that wasn't the case anymore may not stop we stop believing in that fit in with his whole theme of the make America great again everyone where the red hats absolutely and you know, again, is the crucial word we used to be that country we stopping country.

Why will I think both right, left and right simply given up on it.

I'm in the left had become cocooned in its own set of ideas and constituencies and didn't care about the deplorable's right to me what what would make us mobile again would be things like schools would work in an immigration system that helped ordinary Americans and draining the swamp but the swamp employs so many of them under teachers unions are the big contributors and they were going to give up in any about their women talk about how they hated inequality and immobility, but they were vile hypocrites. Very they just didn't know they were not going to change all those things which made us worse off, which made us dinner, which meant that we had to make ourselves great again. And as for the right will they were lost in a whole bunch of things they were lost in the idea of cultural conservatism and virtue in the idea that the people didn't get ahead were a priori sniffing degenerates of Spohn of unwed mothers and all the strong amino you know you know we didn't become degenerate what we had was a dismal set of economic opportunities and what he said I would be the greatest jobs president you've ever seen that's what he was addressing when he said it's going to be a workers party. That's what he meant and so that's the title of the book and I was going to turn to that.

Next, the main title is the Republican workers party and its of the promotional material.

It said that this is this is the future of American presidential politics.

Why so well. I drafted outline well because if you want to appeal to Americans in a presidential election. What you gonna do is hit the sweet spot of American politics and what's that that's cultural and social conservatism which means your nationalist which means you haven't forgotten your Judeo-Christian heritage and you're also not an extreme right-winger when it comes to economic policies and the welfare note.

So, Trump, for example, said I don't want to just repeal Obama care. I want to repeal and replace it with something better. And then he ran into the Paul Ryan right I mean so people nowadays talk about divided government with a divided government since 2016 tribunal since Trump was selected. It's always been divided government and the question is, can Trump bring the Republican Party along with them because what he has done is he's identified how to get elected. You don't just run like Ted Cruz on on the most right wing guy around, and I really hit up. I don't care about ordinary people stuck my face you you got a project that you care about ordinary Americans and that you're going to do something about it a minute.

Republicans and Democrats are good at projecting that, but not so good at doing anything about it. Trumpets actually bringing back jobs and not just jobs but wages and by the way the overtime wages are really exploding.

So he's doing what he promised in terms of fixing our economy. That's was going to make us great again. We are chatting with a FH Buckley.

He is foundation Prof. at the Antonin Scalia law school at George Mason University and author of the book that were discussing its title, the Republican workers party, you mentioned the Trump is distinguished from from a Ted Cruz. He's also distinguished from the Republicans like George Bush or Mitt Romney's or the establishment types the people of known about for a long time. How does that help him and help. How could that help the future of the rubble Republican Party well with respect to your talking about two people whom I think are admirable people who don't nice guys who just didn't have the right message the right ideas in the right carry through them in Bush got us involved a bunch of wars that didn't do anything or anybody cost us lives and billions of dollars, and we we totally repudiated. As for Mitt Romney, the guy who distinguish between what is in the 47% of thinkers and the guys are really producing well I'm in and looked to me as if the guy who owned five homes one wimp which had an elevator for his car.

The guy like give people a pink slip. This is not a guy rejected any great care for near American so that's that that's not the way to go. So given what we've seen from Trump in the record over the first couple of years of his administration. Do you think that there is a good platform for the Republicans to build on the things that they can take on what once Trump is gone and off the scene himself are the things other Republicans could build on that will cause them to be successful. Well I hope so you know I don't know that person could be.

There are number of candidates Tom cotton comes to mind somebody figured out immigration pretty well. What you gotta do is distinguish yourself from your example of pure libertarian right that communicates it doesn't care about social issues and all the cares about his hobbies or GNP. Do not delete these are the guys who talk about being socially liberal and economically right-wing, so their message to Democrats is you know were really on your side when it comes to same-sex marriage, and the like an abortion.

And don't worry about how we feel about economics because we both know were not going to do anything right so as oppose that you need. Somebody's going to connect with ordinary Americans with respect to issues like national identity and patriotism and love in America.

None of the libertarians can do that the Trump message.

Obviously work for him in 2016. Does it seem like the same message is going to be one that will be a winner in 2020. Can we tell well it so I'm not going to make a prediction. I'm not that stupid. But I tell you it's the messages is going to be the same message was happening right now is the sort of thing we haven't seen in America since 1860. We've seen two sides so divided that they cannot even talk to each other.

There's a conversation I should be having.

But of all the Democrats want to do is talk about impeachment, which is I think where they're coming from and there's no possibility of any kind of a meaningful compromise well on that note will wrap up our conversation this time with FH Buckley foundation Prof. at the Antonin Scalia law school at George Mason University, author of his most recent book the Republican workers party thinks of darkness. Thank you for him level on Carolina journal radio in just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping.

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Forest says he's heard of no opposition. The bill in Congress is good. Obviously, the judge said it was unconstitutional and I think he was right on that in doing that a person that authority back to the states and a number of states have stepped up to take that responsibility on themselves and that's what were doing here North Carolina's right thing to do. We had lots of feedback. My colleagues based in the house and the Senate are great speckled with some of my women's groups at home when I became aware of this and wanted to move this forward and I'm as Lieut. Gov. said I've heard no opposition. Everyone is like. I can't believe that's not illegal already. It's its child abuse when it's a young girl State Sen. Joyce graphic of Forsyth County.

She's primary sponsor of the bill to ban female genital mutilation in North Carolina at least 28 states already banned the practice, will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different.

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Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time to double down with S. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio hi Michiko guy, reformers are targeting North Carolina's election redistricting in multiple ways this year. One idea involves a proposed constitutional amendment.

Republican state representative Chuck McGrady explains this proposed amendment brings about three main changes to North Carolina's redistricting process by establishing a transparent method prohibiting partisan data to be used in map drawing process and mandating that districts are drawn sensibly compact configured the idea has some bipartisan support. One cosponsor is democratic state representative Robert Reeves. The time is now. We got a absolute opportunity as a government body as a group of elected officials thankful for is the are are trying to get this together and give us an opportunity and try these thoughts in our Constitution is that if we do at this point time until the people of North Carolina were serious about reform in me, the most important thing we can do at this point time is to get people to have profits in our government again. Nothing to give our people more confidence than saying that we've got to get this into our Constitution got got give these principles and striving.

We've got to make sure that future general assemblies follow these concepts to make sure we get the best districts that actually show we want to represent the people we don't want to pick the people were going to represent Reeves mentioned C4 are our that's the group North Carolinians for redistricting reform one of its leaders, is former UNC system president Tom Ross when you have a group like this is standing together and supporting the same thing from different political parties and and of those that aren't even affiliated with political parties and they agree on something. It's gotta be a pretty good out there is a bipartisan board.

We have support. However, the goes well beyond just our board and I think that that bipartisan support for anything is rare in today's world. And frankly, in my view, if we don't do something about partisan gerrymandering. The polarization that we experience today in our state and society is only get worse.

So when helped found in C4 are back in 2017 we decided then and I still believe that it was important that it be bipartisan and that our approach the to find a way to have a nonpartisan redistricting process for North Carolina. The organization and the people that are here today, standing up before you say or prove that we can work together despite our differences, and that we can put North Carolina first because I think all of us care about our great state and the people of the state.

Simply put, we have come to the conclusion that doing nothing is not an option that doing something is an opportunity and opportunity whose time has come, and whose time is now we have the opportunity at this moment in our history to show ourselves and the rest of the country that North Carolina does not shy away from its challenges, but rather facings that faces them head on and that North Carolinians know how to find the way forward and do so together in these divided time through a constitutional amendment that outlines clear nonpartisan standards for drawing congressional and state voting districts. We believe we can obtain blasting reform that's former UNC system president Tom Ross, one of the leaders of the group North Carolinians for redistricting reform well says he's been discussing the topic in a series of meetings going around the state speaking about this issue. Talking to people about the issue and I've spent hours talking to Republicans to Democrats to independence or people unaffiliated with parties in rural areas and urban areas and suburbs all across our state and we sit down with those people around the state and list the people of North Carolina feel the system is broken. That person redistricting is a significant part of the problem and they want a government that works one that works for them that addresses their challenges and works across the partisan divide divide to find solutions adequately addressing these issues for the citizens of North Carolina is going to require work here in this building and beyond to fix the broken redistricting process. It's worth noting that the broken system did not happen overnight.

It is not a recent phenom is been going on for decades as I thought the people around the state always say to him. This is the fault of the Republicans, and this is the fault of the Democrats. I was a judge for 17 years. I know guilty when I see it there both you and Mr. it's been going on forever and it's time for it to stop. Another high-profile supporter of redistricting reform conservative businessman and philanthropist are hope the effort to draw all their districts litigation over districts been going on for 50 years but I'm up and start talking about that years ago. I'll talk about last night last night.

I was fortunate enough to go to the Carolina good basketball game at Cameron indoor Stadium and it was a hard fall guy. We had a key player got injured early through an accident went out to play referee's call files on both things are the right flagrant file for throwing an elbow. He was unintentional when the game was over in the universe or cannot have one. No one question the legitimacy of that victory related question. That is, the game was played by the rules set way ahead of time rules set forth the size of the court, the height of the basket were the best place rules set forth what was an officer charging power defense of blocking file rules literally drew a line on where bath accounts is three points versus two points in the referees fairly administered those rules. They did not change rules during the middle. The guy most laissez don't like this result. Effect of these rules.

The work will have a new over time with zero scoreboard set back to zero in a new set of rules that will suit without comment and reason we need. Rules reason they provide legitimacy if the we are a nation of rules for state of rule now when it comes to the country and our state rules. The foundation of our rules are set forth in the Constitution United States Constitution North Carolina now regard to redistricting.

SS said they can change at the federal level under the voting rights act protection theories have been the finest on those lawsuits and in the North Carolina Constitution is fairly brought. So what this bill but I will do set forth clear objective rules for future redistricting and rather leaving broad latitude to the legislature to determine what those rules are rather leave it to the courts to create new rules or change a rule. Thirdly, the for administrators. This bill allows the people North Carolina does adopt those rules were constitutional amendment adopted by referendum I think is a great service to the state of North Carolina to his people. For all the reasons already stated, and I think hopefully it will in the continuous series of redistricting litigation and question the legitimacy of the outcome of elections.

That's conservative businessman and philanthropist Art Pope. Also, the founding chairman of the John Locke foundation. He's one of the high-profile supporters of electoral redistricting reform in North Carolina.

Pope joins a bipartisan group that would like to place redistricting rules in the state constitution will return with more Carolina journal radio.

What about commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money. We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing to all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them.

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Our online daily news site Carolina journal.com has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you. Call 1866 JL FINFO for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez following five pay raises in a row, North Carolina's average teacher pay is just shy of $54,000 a year, climbing to 29th in the nation, according to the NEA, the national teachers union, but there could be more pay raises on the way if Gov. Roy Cooper's budget proposal gains traction with the legislature. Dr. Terry stoops is the John Locke foundation's vice president for research.

Also, the director of education studies and he joins me now to talk about Tim.

What is ahead. Terry welcome back to the show. Thank you. This teacher pay figure. The NEA does this sound this listing every year and it looks like they say that North Carolina is climbing they put us at 29th. That's right. And that's and improvements over last year where we were 34th and the year before in which we were 38 so were seeing steady increases in our ranking on the NEA report that's mainly due to the five consecutive pay increases at the Gen. assembly has approved a significant increase in teacher salary over the last five or six years I do to those pay increases is going to catapult us even further up the ranking that the NEA produces every year and that does not include the benefits that a teacher makes were just talking strictly salary here.

Yeah that's really important because when you look at the benefit packages that teachers receive, which includes healthcare retirement benefits and Social Security payments made on their behalf when looking around $18,000 worth of benefits.

Those are included in mainly the NEA rightfully points out that it's hard to compare these sorts of things is hard even get data on the comparative benefits that states and school districts provide to their teachers so they stick with the salary figure and that's what they report here.

It's also worth noting that when we look at these sorts of rankings that are not adjusted for cost-of-living so were just looking at what states reports to the NEA.

Their average salary to be for their teachers not inclusive of benefits or adjusted for cost-of-living and in fact, dammit, common sense, just tells you. For example, if anyone is ever moved from one state to another dollar in one state doesn't translate to necessarily to a dollar in another state, and that's why that cost-of-living adjustment is so important to get a sense of how much your dollar buys their just ask any teacher in Hawaii. If there which is of course when the highest cost of living in the nation's right hindmilk that absolutely, absolutely. And you know if you adjusted their teacher pay for cost-of-living there right at the bottom. Even though it looks on the surface that they get paid a significant amounts when you look at how much it costs to live in a state like Hawaii or you know in other states that have significant cost of living in New York is a good example dollar doesn't go very far. It doesn't North Carolina but not in some of these other states Terry. All of this is going to receive a lot of discussion over the next few weeks as state lawmakers and Gov. Cooper essentially try to put together the budget for the next fiscal year that begins in July and the governor's budget proposal has a large component dedicated to education, specifically K-12 education. He wants more teacher pay raises. It seems there are number of Republicans who would like to do the same. Absolutely. Well, Gov. Cooper has proposed a 9.1% teacher pay increase over two years. I would be doled out in 4.5% one year 4.6% in another year and for him. That is a large enough increase to get us to that national average is calculated by the NEA report Republicans on their side also want to pay increase. You may recall that they promised to get the average teacher salary up to 55,000 by the year 2020. In order to do that they have to increase teacher salaries this year. Now, increasing teacher salaries is an expensive proposition $64 million to increase teacher salaries by one percentage point. So in order to get where we need to read where the legislator legislature or once to get the teacher salary. I it's can be significant investment and they're going to have to find money in what is going to be a tight budget year in order to fulfill that promise. Otherwise, there may be consequences in the 2020 election Terry, there's always been a lot of discussion at least the past couple of years south from those who believe that highly experienced teachers or those with advanced formal education that they are not being compensated like they should be so, tell us a little bit about that and is there any research that tells us.

For example, if a teacher has an advanced degree that that translates into higher achievement for their students. Sure, the bulk of education research tells us that the master's degree usually doesn't translate into higher student achievement.

We have decades of research that confirmed this, and only a few research studies out of the hundreds done have ever said that having a Masters degree. Specifically, Masters degree in education translates into higher student achievement and so based on that fact, the general assembly of five years ago decided to eliminate the amount of money given to teachers for a Masters degree the Masters degree supplement for all new teachers coming into the system.

All those that had a massive script that points were grandfathered in, as well as teachers who needed a Masters degree for their job are also included in that pay supplement.

There is a strong movement right now to raise the teacher salary supplements to include all teachers that have a Masters degree or an alternative plan to just give a Masters degree supplement to those who have a Masters degree in the subject area of your math teacher. You have a Masters degree in math, you would get the supplement. The research is a bit mixed on that it would be a much better investment.

Frankly, if we had more teachers going to national board certification or some other way of of getting is supplement for advanced training rather than a Masters degree but it looks like there is bipartisan effort to get the Masters degree pay restored Gov. Cooper certainly wants it, as well as some Republicans in the house. Terry, let's talk more about a key component of the governor's budget proposal, which is receiving a lot of pushback, including from you and the John Locke foundation because this involves Sam a closing of the door that the governor wants to see on the opportunity scholarship program and that is a scholarship program for low income families for parents to be able to take their child if they qualify for the program take a voucher and put their child into a private school that they think will be better for their child. The governor does not want this to continue.

Frankly, it's both predictable and appalling that he would do this to low income families that simply want something better for their children the opportunity scholarship program provides $4200 year scholarships to very low income families. The average income of the opportunity scholarship families is around $17,000 a year. And so what he does. It is his. He says, anyone that's in the opportunity scholarship program right now can stay in. Nobody else gets to have access to the scholarships, even though there's tremendous demand for them. And furthermore, if you drop out of the opportunity scholarship program that doesn't free up a slot that just means that's one less scholarship that's available. Honestly, if there is a slap in the face to these low income families that are simply seeking a private school education for their children for any number of reasons to be academic concerns. It could be the safety of their children, which is its pretty prominent reason why people are choosing opportunity scholarship because they fear for the safety of their child, or any number of other reasons that they have cited and in surveys and research. Honestly, Gov. Cooper should be ashamed of himself for making this move. And honestly I think that in the end we won't see any sort of shutting the door on this program because legislative Republicans won't stand for women talking with Dr. Terry stoops. He is the John Locke foundation's vice president for research. Also, the director of education studies Terry thinking of the time we have for the program this week.

Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch.

Okay I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke.or call 1866 jail left info 1-866-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina's free-market maintaining and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are selling those did not merely for the station. Information about the show.

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