Carolina Journal Radio No. 841: More candidates join North Carolina’s U.S. Senate race

From Cherokee to current tagging from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko Kime during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state North Carolina's certificate of need represents one way government restricts healthcare innovation will chat with the lawyer challenging that certificate process and other government interventions in healthcare, some state lawmakers are pushing Allison's law would allow a new tracking of violent domestic abuse offenders.

A recent report focuses on improving early childhood learning.

North Carolina's most challenging public school districts you'll hear highlights along with legislators, reactions, and will discuss the significance of the recent repeal of North Carolina's infamous map act will that mean for property rights. What will it mean for the future of transportation in North Carolina. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline national and North Carolina Democrats are hoping that they can send Republican US Sen. Tom Tillis into retirement in the 2020 election, giving Democrats a crucial pickup of a seat in the United States Senate and now two more Democrats have said they're going to enter this race. Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal he joins us now with an update on the Senate race. Welcome back to the show. Rick get on all right so the field of Democrats who say they would like to challenge, presumably Tom Tillis, but maybe not, and will talk about that.

I tell is Susan the latest candidate as of the time were taping.

This is the former State Sen. Eric Mansfield Fayetteville. He is a physician who is an ordained minister, he was in the state Senate for stuck up several terms and is someone who is would be the third African-American I believe on the Democratic side running for the nomination just before this announcement, Cal Cunningham, former State Sen., who served one term also announced at the end of the thing is interesting is that Calcutta hymns become from the perennial about filler if you will always run in several other races unsuccessfully to the for them either the Democratic nomination or for office itself, but he looks like he's going to have the support of the Democratic Senatorial campaign committee which is causing some consternation among some Democrats because you have three African-American candidates who have a fair amount of elective experience and you have a one term White Democrat male who's running who hasn't shown any success in running for statewide office is getting the backing of all the money folks in Washington interesting as well that there has been some reporting that Cunningham also has picked up the endorsement of the former North Carolina US Sen. Kay Hagan yes for Sen. Hagan, who's not in very good health right now because of meningitis that she contracted right after leaving the Senate has endorsed Cunningham. There may be an attempt by some the state Democratic Party to clear the field of other prominent challengers to former state treasurers have been listed as potential candidates here are Richard Moore and his successor Janet Cowell are both rumored as having interest in the race and actually either one of them would probably give former Sen. Cunningham's Cunningham some problems because both of them have one statewide races more than once and also have the ability to raise money. Every heard anything about Deborah Ross who ran for the U.S. Senate last time around. She keeps being mentioned to someone is a possibility but it basically I'm not really sure the Cal Cunningham is a person is clear the field for the other big time Senate contenders. I believe 5C reporting where Democrats in Washington are have approached or have at least fielded interest from the Ross campus well is certainly from Cowan and Moore but Cunningham was the first one to come in and it looks like if if he's eventual nominee refuses to Vesey of the eventual front runner that he would get the support of national Democrats again. A lot of progressive Democrats and African American Democrats not real happy about the situation based on the fact that a number of high profile names as well is some some other folks you have elective office experience assembly folks are interested.

This time around is that an indication that Tom Tillis could be vulnerable also could.

He's got a challenge on the Republican side, but from the Democratic perspective is Tom Tillis that vulnerable well there. He's received his full will, because a lot of people were very surprised that he actually won his race in 2014 against Kay Hagan, but I think guys, I settle this program for people underestimate his campaigning ability at their peril. He was a very effective campaigner. He closed very well, which show some Dragon did not do so. Democrats think this is going to be a good year for them. They think the president from us money for elections going to be unpopular and they think that they could pick off some of these several Senate seats and in purple states are in states where others closely contention a car because of contentious races between Democrats and Republicans so I think Tom Tillis may be vulnerable. They also begin may underestimate his ability to campaigner to the Republican side because he has not cleared the field. Of course no one is filed yet at this point, but Sen. Tillis said, presumably, is running for reelection. We have every indication that he is and he also has two people who have said they want to challenge him for the GOP nomination. We talked about one previously is a business businessman named Garland Tucker, but we also have a Sandy Smith in this race for more about who we really don't know a whole lot someone who may be running as a protest candidate will ensure not perceive right now to be a serious challenger.

He could be a spoiler. If it turns out that, for whatever reason, Garland Garland Tucker and Tom Tillis, nobody really takes majority.

It's possible that he could get enough votes to be a spoiler, but I think that's about all we can say right now.

Let's talk a little bit more about Tillis and Tucker and in full disclosure for our listeners. At one point Garland Tucker was a senior fellow at the John Locke foundation in that relationship no longer exists as the John Locke foundation sever ties once it became clear and public that Garland Tucker was running for office. We are not a political organization at the John Locke foundation. That said, Garland Tucker has been doing a lot of media a lot of television and really attacking Tom Tillis saying he's not the conservative I am right Garland Tucker has been talking both about being more of a more active cultural conservative than Tom Tillis and also someone who would support present trumps agenda more than Sen. Tillis has. This is an argument that he hopes is going to hold sway among primary voters. The difficulty I think in the case with most people challenging Republicans this point is that the typical Republican incumbent in the U.S. Senate has voted with Pres. Trump about 95% of the time this though the few key votes may be a difference maker, but possibly not. I think for Sen. Tillis has a problem of vulnerability is the fact that he did make a very public challenge of present trumps attempt to use an emergency order to seal the border in wrote an op-ed saying that that was not the president's responsibility and then basically said never mind changed his mind very quickly after a whole lot of criticism of that action right. Let's talk little bit more about Trump. He is now officially in the race for reelection and it looks like he has a pretty friendly relationship with Sen. Tillis is an endorsement likely to come in MA and he may well throw his weight behind Sen. Tillis especially thinks center tells us does a much better chance of defeating whoever the Democrats are run. We we heard rumors of that's going to be the case, but we don't know that for sure yet we know that that the grassroots group Americans for prosperity has endorsed Tillis already there. There for 501(c) four, so he's going to get some support. I think from some of my heavy hitting conservative groups not clear yet about the president what he's going to do because it looks like Garland Tucker's message is I am the person who supports Pres. Trump.

It's not Sen. Tillis so that would be a fascinating, dynamic, should the president choose to endorse and choose to endorse Sen. Tillis. We know for sure North Carolina battleground as it has been for number of years. Presidents gonna be here no surrogates will be here, so it's not like he can avoid the situation.

That's right, he's gonna be here of the Republican national convention is going to be here and so we will be seeing a lot of the president in campaigning for him and for the Republicans over the next 16 something sterile and eternal course is going to be doing reporting extensive reporting on this race.

Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal think you think that you stay with us much more Carolina internal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. Journal.com. You'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month.

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I'm slowly missing from so up. First of all, tell us a little bit about to what's going on here in North Carolina. In your case, there sure so Dr. Singh is a general surgeon in fourth Forsyth County and last year she noticed that his patients are coming back to him whenever he would prescribe them a diagnostic scan and say your Dr. Singh account for this scanner can figure out the price. The scan is. And like any good doctor who wants to serve his patients.

He said to do something about that. So you decide to open Forsyth imaging center which is a full-service diagnostic Center. She got an x-ray machine, a CT mesquite machine he got ultrasound machines, but he found out that he was banned from getting a specific type of machine.

An MRI scanner under something called North Carolina certificate of need law, which in short bands.

Healthcare providers from acquiring new certain new equipment or facilities unless they can determine they can prove need for those services beforehand and often than not even allowed to apply for certificate of need of state planners project in advance that there is no need available for the next year and they need to convince state regulators that there is a need. That's not the does that prove it to their patients proven to potential customers. They have to give it someone within government.

There is this neat, yet sort of a two track question because every year of the bunch of central planners in Raleigh get together and release this document called the state health facilities plan which says for the next year and each what they called planning areas. Whether a new services actually needed if they don't project a need using their magic formula in their calculators and their formulas. The writer can even apply for a con to provide the services now. If they do project need the bridge of the writer's the last of them file this very complex and expensive application demonstrating affirmatively that they actually meet the need requirement so sort of a two-part question. Now you are working with Dr. Singh who you mentioned Dr. Gendreau Singh out of the Winston-Salem, Forsyth area where they stand with that case yes so we actually file the case in July of last year and since then, the case is sort of been stalled a bit because it involves a facial challenge to the validity of a separate state statute.

We have to wait until were appointed. A three-judge panel by the Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court before the case can proceed.

So while the government has moved to dismiss the case.

There hasn't been a briefing and we don't have a briefing schedule on that is a bit of an administrative back law on this backlog in a three-judge panel thing.

We are chatting with Josh Windham who is an attorney with the Institute for Justice. You are also working on a case dealing with healthcare and dealing with government rules and regulations in South Carolina tells about that. So that case involves a company called visibly known to file the case was called alternative. But here's the basic story Dr. Steven Lee was a practicing optometrist who had conducted over 20,000 refractive eye tests and determined that the traditional method of getting one of these test of going into a brick-and-mortar optometry shop of looking through that big clunky device with all the lenses on it and saying better or worse, what you stare at that chart from the 1950s was needlessly time-consuming and convenient for patients and he said we take the same self reporting principal at the core of these tests and with 21st-century technology allow patients to take an online test from their home and see actually develop software that allowed patients to do this and in 2014 release the world's first online refractive test and it actually works on but the problem is that when patients take that test. What were they not doing for not going into a brick-and-mortar optometry shop which is how optometrist make all their money so when the technology went live optometrist across the country lobbied and states to get the alternative technology specifically banned in a few states they succeeded. So South Carolina got a law passed that specifically targets and bands alternatives technology prevents physicians from actually using that technology as part of their practices even if it would meet the standard of care due to while allowing every other kind of doctor in the state to use telemedicine to treat their patients with singles out ophthalmologists who want to use alternative technology so Institute for Justice and your client are challenging that restriction wears that case statement yes so we challenge that restriction in 2016 under the South Carolina Constitution and were on appeal right now before the South Carolina Court of Appeals, the trial court dismissed our case at the motion for summary judgment stage, actually, after after discovery saying that we lacked standing to sue, which I think this is completely incorrect and defensible is one of the worst reasons reasoned opinions I've ever read. So were looking forward to that one. Now we've talked about North Carolina and South Carolina Institute for Justice works with clients really across the country. We see this type of activity government getting involved with healthcare and blocking these innovative procedures in other states is a common problem for me to see if you want example to correct the con contacts me 34 states and DC have certificate of need laws of one form or another. North Carolina has one of the more restrictive laws in the country but protectionism the medical industry is incredibly common.

Basically wherever you have professionals in large amounts of money to find people rent seeking and working to use government power to tamp down on either current or future competitors.

And that's what we see all across the medical industry. Why is this something that so important to the Institute for Justice to to deal with this type of case.

That's a great question and this is kind of a Mavis is a personal perspective, but the in my view, the freedom to direct our healthcare decisions is crucial to our ability to live. I mean my ability to work with my doctor, my doctors freedom to recommend the treatments that are available or that he thinks I should consider trying that relationship is very important mightily true to direct and to self determine the course of my health care decisions and when government interjects itself in that process and tells either the doctor or the patient know people lose our quality of life and they lose their lives and too often that happens not because of the concern for patient health because some group was successful lobbying legislators to protect the bottom line we talked about a couple of cases in North Carolina and South Carolina that are still ongoing. North Carolina has really gone very far. South Carolina your first step was was not a positive outcome. Are there other places where these rules have been challenged health-related rules and you've seen some successes. Yeah, I mean. One example is just is North Carolina itself in 1973 the North Carolina Supreme Court struck down an almost identical version of North Carolina certificate of need law and our challenge is designed to to replicate that North Carolina Supreme Court so were hoping expect that the decision will be binding and control. This case when you talk to people about these cases who are outside the legal field outside the healthcare field. The people say that the government really does that. Yeah, I think the most common response I get is sort of one of two responses. What is what he said what can be real right and the second one is is is a free country and my answer is yes, it's real.

And guess it's a free country.

But something is not adding up. I think unfortunately we have a healthcare system in North Carolina looks too much like a Soviet style system, but that the motivation for I don't think is as pernicious as pernicious as the Soviet one in the sense that you have so why think it really just comes from from its of a different kind of motivation it's it's one group thinking they can block competitors and use government power to do that. So I guess it is just as pernicious as a Soviet style system and others who think whether they're right or wrong, that hey, this is helping consumers by having the government. Yeah, that's right. And I think one of the things that is most surprising to me about doing research for this in learning about common laws and filing this case is just of recognizing the kind of hubris of of a central planner who thinks that they can they can project for entire planning area or for the entire state what healthcare services are going to be needed all as this case and others move forward.

We know the one person is going to be playing a role in watching very closely.

As Josh Windham.

He's an attorney at the Institute for Justice Josh, thanks for joining us. Thanks Mitch l'Amour on Carolina Gen. radio in just a moment if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news and views and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council.

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Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got the statehouse endorsed this year a measure dubbed Allison's law.

Republican state representative Donnie Lamberth of Forsyth County explains this file. She came to me from the mom of young lady that was in my district who had been brutally murdered, stabbed over 31 times pulled out of her home while she's get ready for work. Three kids in the house and the mom as we talked about this felt like had her daughter had some type of alert system that would alerted her that this individual had violated their restraining order and was in the area she might've taken precautions. Lamberth looked beyond North Carolina for ideas to address the problem of the states actually have a burial that actually are laws that actually tracks and alerts individuals and that technology now has gotten so much better that you can actually use cell phones. In some cases, so this video is of named Allison's law after the individual young lady who was killed what is billed as is to give the judge discretion.

If they believe that the person who has had a restraining order taken out against him is violent or may violate that restraining order to have a tracking device that tracking device would alert the person who took out the restraining order as well as the Sheriff's office or protective services and they would dispatch someone if that was a violation or they found that this individual was violating an area that the individual is not supposed to be allowed in such as the victim's home. Allison's law would start out in a single North Carolina County Forsyth. The resort known as a pilot program is to be able to work out any of the issues with it is that we got funds in here.

I've worked with the court system, district attorney clerk, according to site County and they are all supportive. The Sheriff's office, a supporting of participating is in this. We also talked to the people in Randolph County who has a very successful system that works as it had in place for number of years and were gonna continue to learn from what they've done and hope that we can potentially gather enough information that we might be back at some point with a statewide deal with this.

As I mentioned is just for Forsyth County to be able to learn more about gather information and put in place a tracking system that might help save lives. One of the few questions that cropped up during debate who pays the tab. If the offender can't afford the bill or the reason have this polyp money is to cover the cost for those who don't pay. The intent would be not to not do it because of the financial impact in use on this money to cover that cost that is part of what will try to learn from the polyp that's state representative Donnie Lamberth. He's discussing legislation dubbed Allison's will return with more Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with S. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation will go back Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy North Carolina lawmakers are looking for ways to improve education in school districts with special disadvantages legislative program evaluator Jeff Grimes recently noted a key finding from a report on the issue most predominantly disadvantaged school districts have below grade level achievement. Those that are outperforming are typically doing so with strong performance in third grade. That finding leads to a couple of recommendations from Grimes and the legislatures program evaluation division Gen. assembly should require low performing school districts to include in early childhood improvement plan is a component of district improvement plans.

Those districts deemed low performing under the state's accountability system already have to create improvement plans. The evidence in our report suggests that if these struggling districts are going to increase achievement. The most likely route is by reaching a high level of achievement in the early education years requiring low performing districts to have a strategy for early education improvement can help a second recommendation involves the states main public education agency, the Gen. assembly should require an assessment of early childhood learning as part of DPI's comprehensive needs assessment process for districts. This is an existing process that provides a systematic review of practices, processes and systems within a district and assist district leadership in determining needs, setting priorities and benchmarking performance comprehensive needs assessment can also help inform district improvement plans, including an assessment of early childhood learning in these assessments can help ensure districts are focusing on this important time. Of learning Republican state representative Craig Horne responded to the new report will impose on treasure. No magic bullet we try lots of things we need to continue to try lots of things, some of them are going to work for some folks and like everything else, some of work for nothing were sure everyone we need to do to try pretty much anything we can find. This is because some things you work for others. Certainly in the report.

The about I call the preparation gap kids are not prepared to start kindergarten for all kinds of reasons, some of them are family issues.

Some of them are academic issues. Some of them are physical or or medical issues.

But, under any circumstances. We need to to reach out to these kids and their families and do everything we can remind colleagues that the state budget addresses these issues in some ways the budgets are some 3400 additional slots over the next two years for rinsing pre-k that's not enough. It's not going to cover all the children are potentially eligible and all the kids are potentially eligible have access to others along the things we have to look at but no question that when we got kids out of her 30 million more words by the time they're five years old. Another kids were going to have the preparation gap and we as a state as parents, grandparents, as legislators, we've got to find a way to address that we cannot with all due respect to form and we cannot be raising a generation forming would gotta provide opportunities for every child to be prepared when they begin school, state representative Rena Turner asked the evaluator Grimes what his researches found about successful disadvantaged students.

Is there any enlightenment from the data that would say what motivated those students in disadvantaged areas that perform timely one of the common themes I think that emerged was talking to the superintendents they would say well we we've got a lot of poverty in our school district, but everybody in this district believes that these kids can learn succeed and so II do think that that is important important piece if the if the school district. You know from from the beginning, doesn't think that the kids are likely to succeed is probably a good chance they won't Democratic State Sen. Don Davis asked about the existing plans targeted by Grimes recommendations. Looking at the district improvement plans on the any indications.

How are the school districts affiliates actually addressing this or not. Right now, if were talking about more legislation that provides.

I guess more of her reporting requirement.

My question is how we actually evaluate it. The plans that are coming forth that are being produced at this point that is an existing process. We did not specifically evaluate the overall effectiveness of the district improvement plan process.

The idea behind recommendation one is is basically that since we know this early period is so important.

Making sure that that's being looked at in their plans are feeling it. With this recommendation is that having districts plan and look at early childhood can certainly help Republican State Sen. Chuck Edwards also asked about the plans. It almost seems to me like were saying that if you have an underperforming school system then, or at least in regards to early childhood education, then you should fit you should put together a plan fix that amendment would which seems fairly obvious. I just would've expected a bit more granularity and into a plan to get Sen. Andy Wells turned his colleagues attention back to the report itself.

I like to keep us focused on some really good information.

This report finding three economic disadvantage district that perform or share common characteristics and you got six pages exploring those half dozen or so characteristics that they have in common adverse areas. Although commonalities exist among the 12 K study districts. They did not use identical strategies and approaches, so there's no master plan that state government can come up with and fix this problem.

There are number of steps that you can take, but it seems to me from reading this report that the most important one is that you take the KR to have a plan and plan and not the plan and that that plan you got 1/2 dozen things that may or may not need to be included in that plan. I think just focusing and administration a school board a community on the specific pre-k and I agreed with Superintendent Johnson pre-k through three that just focusing energy on that is, like shopping your Saul and you go out in the woods and cut down a few trees of the Dole saw it's not a lot of fun and you look like a fool than my watch and if you take a little time to put an edge on a precise age you can get a lot more done and I think this whole process about creating a plan. An individual plan by LAA not a state master plan is a key to this, they need to have a plan to liaise you figure out what that plan needs to be top of these folks are doing it well and some is demographics or depressing Jones County, 83% free and reduced lunch, but they made the good list. So anybody can make a good list if they have a plan and executed you been listening to highlights from legislative debate about improving student performance in North Carolina's most disadvantaged school districts will return with more Carolina journal rate in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina.

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The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez is called the math fact one of the most anti-property rights laws on the books in North Carolina, but with Gov. Roy Cooper's signature on a recently passed bill that map act would be gone to move along endorsed by our next guest John to say who is director of legal studies for the John Locke foundation John welcome back to the show started this law, the map act has been on the books in North Carolina for 30 years or so. What is it and why are you and others so upset about. Well, the map act empowered the Department of Transportation and other agencies and organizations as well, but primarily the Department of transportation to impose permanent moratoria on development within designated transportation corridors. The idea was that since they knew there was going they were to build a road there. Eventually it would be a bad thing for any new development that took place. The problem is these things that on the books for years, sometimes for decades. The owners weren't allowed to develop the land in any way, sometimes not even doing so much as build a carport and it went on year after year without any compensation. Let me make sure I understand. So if the state of North Carolina determined that they wanted to build a road, say in an area where I owned a house they could say you can't do anything to the house including sell it knowing that you could end up by being in a situation where they went to take your property know you could sell it better be jolly hard to sell it. Who would want to buy.

You can't do anything with it. So you have been writing about this for a number of years about instances where people in different areas of the state have been ensnared by the map act in some of those people ended up suing they did there was a group of landowners of Forsyth County that all property in a series of corridors around Winston-Salem and they got together and they sued the Department of transportation to bad compensation. They said that imposing a permanent moratorium on development was equivalent to a taking under the law of the land because of the North Carolina Constitution and they should be compensated. What happened well. I went up to the courts. It took a long time, but eventually admitted all away to the North Carolina Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said yes indeed, this is a taking, you have to compensate these people. That's what they said that the Department of Transportation tell us a little bit more about the Supreme Court's reasoning on that because I'm sure they they took into account that the state and the Department of Transportation would need to build certain infrastructure and there would be a way to go about that. So what if the Supreme Court to hatted it kind of look at the right to property owners versus the state. Well, there is no question that the state has the power of eminent domain. They could take land if they needed for a road but under our Constitution that have to compensate the owners, the Supreme Court said, and they were following the same line of reasoning that the Court of Appeals had used before. This is being done because they want to reduce what they ultimately have to pay for the lab they want to prevent development because development as to the value. This is a way to get the lead on the cheap. That's not acceptable these people.

If you're going to take away the right to develop a ledger developing your ticket away valuable portion of their property rights you have to compensate them in with this Supreme Court ruling, I would suspect the folks in Forsyth County and other people in different parts of the states who also found themselves in limbo because of the map act would have been cheering saying yea we won. Did it turn out that way. Well yes and no. I mean they are waiting, they did win and they are waiting, but the department transportation did drag its heels for a long time about paying the actual compensation. There were many subsequent lawsuits over the value of the property and so on so forth. But payments are great going out and slowly but surely those liabilities are getting compensated now that we had the Supreme Court ruling, then why did the Gen. assembly get involved in fire. We now here today talking about a bill that would essentially remove the Mac map act from law with Gov. Roy Cooper's signature well. In effect, the Supreme Court decision made the map out the dead letter.

They work to be able to if they were to use… To impose transportation corridors in the future.

There would have to compensate the owners, and so they were probably likely to do that.

Nevertheless, the legislature acted immediately to impose a moratorium on new corridors right after that Supreme Court decision and asked the department transportation to do a study and come back with recommendations on what an alternative way of planning for future transportation needs might be. They waited and waited but that moratorium would would've ended this summer. So they decided to tie the government to simply repeal the map act, the department transportation did eventually provide a report. It was a few months late but they did it. And so the next step in this process will be for the legislature to look at that report digestive decide what, if anything they want to put in place as an alternative with a state Supreme Court ruling essentially saying that this is unfair how the map pack is been imposed in in North Carolina. Could the legislature have simply just a little let the loss stay in acted with there have been away for the Department of Transportation to go ahead and impose it, or would that Supreme Court ruling prevail. I am getting at is, is it necessary to actually repeal it though is unnecessary.

There are plenty of statutes still on the books that are unenforceable.

But it's better government to get rid of it and especially because we need a way to plan for the future.

As far as our transportation needs are concerned if the map act is going to be unusable because of the cost or the result of the map act decision was that simply designating land trust is transportation corridors wasn't going to be a way to get that land. Eventually, cheaply, so if they want to have some way to control how leg is developed going for the need to come up with a better system and speaking of a better system. Let let's talk a bit about that because certainly roads have to be built bridges have to be built. The Department of Transportation is in charge of implementing that kind of fat infrastructure activity in the state. So what are your thoughts on what would be the best approach so that property rights are rightly protected, but yet infrastructure has to be built. Well, there's probably not a perfect solution, because as soon as the state makes it known that they have plans to use some property in the future. That in and of itself, is go to have a negative impact on the value of the lab that's just probably the price we pay for living in a changing state that's growing was changing transportation needs. I actually like the. The approach that the department transportation came back with their report they said look the best way for us to deal with these future transportation needs is to acquire the land as soon as we know, we needed, but they also said the state legislature you're going to have to give us the money to do it because it obviously under state law in the state constitution will have to compensate the owners, and so if you are an owner to find yourself in that position.

I guess you could say it. The earlier you know, the better because then you can have to quickly determine what your options are and now compensation and a fast compensation is a requirement yes will cover the compensation to certainly go be a requirement. How fast will be with the pendulum on how willing the department transportation is to to come to terms with landowners. This can be a long process of the what if it gets into the courts, but yes, that's the way it has to be done and all of the software hope it will be done. John people might be listing to Hassan thinking this is an unthinkable that government would come in and essentially depress the value of your land. Limit your ability to make upgrades, etc. and decrease the market value they just might be surprised that this has indeed been happening well then maybe surprise, but if there surprises because I don't really know what goes on. It's been happening in the state is what happened in other parts of the country and is not just when it comes to transportation planning we could get into some other topics like domain people have to be vigilant because property rights are always at risk. Johnny is director of legal studies for the John Locke foundation. Thanks for giving us an update on the map that John presented to the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch.

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