Carolina Journal Radio No. 859: Highlighting oddities in N.C. criminal code

From chair to current and the largest city in the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state.

If North Carolina state government should play a larger role in school construction. It seems sensible to pursue an option that makes more money available more quickly and at a lower overall cost you learn about an option, designed to meet those goals. It's called the state capital and infrastructure fund University of North Carolina system is touting recent enrollment growth Miller details and hear about how recent tuition changes played a role.

The general assembly supported changes that limit tuition burdens the world recently marked the 50th anniversary of the first moon landing at Western Carolina University.

The celebration included comments from the youngest man ever to walk on the moon.

He's Charlotte native Charlie Duke you hear highlights from his public presentation and central planners like mass transit, but most people like cars. Instead, you learn that more North Carolinians are enjoying the freedom to drive in their own cars.

Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline here in North Carolina. Simple assault and battery is a class II misdemeanor unless you decide you're going to attack a referee during a sporting event, in which case it becomes a class I offense.

Now, in a recent piece posted@johnlock.org the Locke foundation's legal fellow Mike sheets out writes that this is just one of many examples of this kind of disparity in the states.

Criminal law, and that, taken together, they point to a criminal code that really needs reformed my joints now talk about this Mike welcome back to the shout. Thank you. Okay.

How is it possible that if I decide I don't like the aunt the wrath that they're doing just a really bad job that I can go out there and whack him over the head and that's considered to be much more of a problem of a crime than if I decide that my neighbors lawnmowers to loudly go whack him right field that's a good question.

I think that's that's what the problem is that's being illustrated by this is is a grading disparity. If you have if you attack one person for one reason or another person for another reason. It in general, there's there's really no reason to grade those differently.

So why sports officials got extra protection is the question is up for debate. I think it probably had a lot to do with overzealous Little League parent or something in an error group of them as there was a lot of threats being made.

From what I've heard on Little League umpires and coaches and so in order to add that extra deterrent effect the Gen. assembly made the choice to to make this a harsher punishment. This happened a few years ago right. I believe this rule came about 1993. So this is this about 1/4 century old this point. Interesting.

So we don't know exactly how it came about, but I think what you're saying sounds that probably like something that occurred and so the there may have been media stories about it and then there's the cry from the public for somebody to quote do something right and that is likely what occurred but that is law right now in your piece is kinda fascinating. Mike, because you also write about disparities in other areas and you focused in a bit on larceny tells first what is larceny and is North Carolina defined as will as simple as possible. Larceny is theft to steal somebody stuff you committed larceny. North Carolina defines it with a kind of an ancient definition we used. We as a definition that you could open up a copy of Blackstone's commentaries on the laws of England during the latter half of the 1760s and is still roughly the same definition that if you steal someone's personal property, then you under certain conditions that larceny and these the issue with that is the personal property leaves open the theft of real property remaining.

Things like real estate or things that are attached to real estate.

There was this distinction a common-law between personal and real property there still a distinction between personal and real property in the law and so if you stole real property under the common law it wasn't larceny, and we've added tons of patches over the years. To this definition of of of larceny is personal property rather than just incorporating wholesale all property and that's created quite the voluminous section on larceny. Now some of our listeners might be thinking that's the problem with lawyers my you guys make everything so complicated you still somebody stuff that should just be obvious that the crime that's larceny and then you take your punishment I be inclined to agree to the point where to talking about your project here at the John Mark foundation you are taking a look at the criminal law in North Carolina and finding all the strange things which really leads us to the question of reform so tell us why this is important to someone listening to Carolina Journal radio. Why is it important that there should be a distinction in assault and there should be a distinction in larceny. While EE when you think about the criminal law the criminal law is such a powerful tool for the state write the criminal law is the ability of the state to to go up to you private citizen and take your life, your liberty or your property away and so the, the, the, the window of opportunity for the state to do that ought to be limited to Lisa Lyons our conception of of liberty in our conception of property rights. It ought to be limited in terms the opportunity for the state go to and do these things but the problem is that over the year. We kind of use the criminal laws. A one-size-fits-all if we want to stop a certain kind of behavior we just attach criminal penalties to admit to be is something as serious as is a sexual offense which we were driving most of us would agree should absolutely be criminalized and using silly string within the town limits of Mount airy, which is subject to a class III misdemeanor real punishment. Yes, it is by local ordinance.

They have the use of of silly string and snap and pops in the in the town limits of Mount airy in these kinds and in its I don't want to pick on Mount airy that these are all over the state. We can find all kinds of examples of we just want people to stop doing this so we criminalize it so Mike, how is it then that if something is happening in man Mount Airy or maybe something is happening in Wilmington and it gets set put into some local ordinance deemed a crime will then you got the general assembly and they may be making criminal law as well. How does anybody know how is North Carolinian supposed to know exactly what is a crime in this state.

How is an attorney to know how is a policymaker to know your guess is as good as mine. There's a lot of body of law out there were people have to pull from so many different sources. In in in in Federalist 62 and a roughly try to try to quote Hamilton here. It makes no difference to the people. Whether the laws be made of men, of their own choosing.

If the laws are so voluminous they cannot be read which is a lot like the situation we have here or so in can hear it incoherent that it cannot be understood was another problem we have in that separate and apart from the issue of volume but when you have to look through thousands and thousands of pages, it would be an all-consuming task just to know what the criminal law is and that's a problem when again we start talking about the power of the state to come in and take your property. Take your liberty, or in very severe cases. Now, fortunately your life you've been writing a lot about these issues with the criminal law urging policymakers to take a look at this to authorize a review of all of this. Figure out what's going on in to take some steps forward to make it clearer and more fair, more transparent, where are we in that process well. On Monday we had our North Carolina criminal law reform summit and spoke with a number of policymakers a number of interested stakeholders across the state. We are still gathering reports from the local governments and we here are in the process of trying to chart out a course of action for the Gen. assembly to take. This is not going to be a quick overnight project. This is something is going to take months, perhaps years of compiling information, synthesizing it and providing options to decision-makers so that they can move forward in an informed manner and create a product that we can be proud of here in a product that we think will set the tone for the rest of the country. Is there an appetite for this at the general assembly because it's it's one of those things that may not be sexy but is very necessary and important.

I think there's there's a growing attention to the issue more and more legislators expressed a desire to be in on this project because a lot of them have seen the different corners of that the harm of this might cause either as a prosecutor as a defense attorney. As someone who just volunteers to do expunction stood to help clear someone's record so there is a growing appetite for it and hopefully we start to see more interest is as the project moves along in the picture becomes clear in that picture is becoming clearer thanks to a lot of the writing and analysis that Mike sheets out has been doing here at the John Locke foundation and you can find all of that at John Locke.North very much.

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It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for our daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guy if you think state government should do more to help fund new school buildings across North Carolina. You would choose an option that provides more money available more quickly and at a lower overall cost right will our next guest is here to tell us about a plan that does just that state representative Dean Arp is a Republican representing Union County. Thanks for joining us in thanking Mitch to be here and what were talking about with this plan that has more money available more quickly lower overall cost is something called the state capital and infrastructure fund tell us about that.

That is fantastic. We actually passed that two years ago. This is the first year that it will be implemented and were really excited about the opportunities North Carolina is uniquely situated like a movie.

State to be able to do this.

I think it's really exciting what is the fund. The fund basically is a pay-as-you-go method instead of of appropriating 4% of your revenue to mortgage payments were set that aside and pay cash for it because we're in a great position financially were able to do that we can provide more money without the interest cost of the financing and do it quicker yell just so I am clear about this.

What you're talking about is basically 4% of the money that's already coming in 4% of the state budget, you would set that aside and say this is something working to devote to school construction.

Another construction instead of other things that we might be spending this money on absolutely.

We currently spend about 3 1/2% of the revenue less the tax money that company for debt service and the worst past borrowing that we've already.the debt debt affordability and advisory committee says we can borrow up to 4% for the half percent and still maintain their AAA bond rating, but the great thing about it is as if were willing to go there. What we do is just do not simply borrow we take that difference and pay cash short over time as debt goes down we get more more money for us is for every $50 million that comes often debt service that $50 million is available the next year and in the following year. So just by simply paying down debt service by $50 million in five years you will have generated $250 million to be used for capital not doing anything else taken away any other priorities to simply paying down your debt and live within your means.

Were talking about the state capital and infrastructure fund and one of the reasons this comes up is because there has been discussion about getting the state involved more in local school construction and one option that was put forward was statewide bond referendum, which a lot of people are familiar with. You have upon the vote of the bond. If the bond passes you get the money by borrowing it skiff has been put forward as a pay-as-you-go alternative what you think this is the better alternative. Glad you asked that because first of all, were uniquely positioned to be able to do this. The two things involved time and money over time so we don't need when we go out for a $2 billion bond we don't have $2 billion that first day we use it over time as it is time is needed. Just like when you're building a house you take out a construction long you take draws on it over time. Will that allows us to do the same thing here when we take out money instead of borrowing we actually have cash available.

Francis ever heard people say whoa whoa whoa everybody borrows money for them house real thing is, why would you borrow money if you had the cash to do otherwise and that's what were talking about.

We talked about the fact that this would have more money available. Overall available more quickly and at a lower overall cost. Let's touch on each one of those were speaking with state representative Dean are Republican representing Union County about the state capital and infrastructure fund, or skip so based on the original plans. There was an idea for school bond and then the idea was presented to to use the skiff instead with more money available for souls is that right that's right, the governor proposed about $4.2 billion of borrowing us a combination of 3.9 billion in Geo bonds are general obligation bonds another 300 million and non-voter approved debt totals about $4.2 billion, but the cost of that is is an additional $2.4 billion from the interest on the interest cost and that spread out over 10 years of of receiving that money in, you pay it back over 20 years where we are is we can do the same projects actually more we'll actually generate $7.3 billion toward construction cost by following this plan and just simply using what's already appropriated for debt service and as that debt service goes down we will generate hundreds of billions of dollars for this so there's more money available and they would be the lower overall cost because you don't have the interest payments.

You also mentioned that this is available more quickly how that works fantastic will put it in perspective, we recently passed a connect and see bond that's $2 billion using this method and with today's position for North Carolina are two-year budget for capital budget is $1.4 billion and and and that's and that's debt free. Over that same time. If we keep this up.

Our debt will be reduced by 62% in that same time. So as we simply pay down the debt we generate more more money that can help our schools that can be invested in our water and infrastructure are crumbling, universities, and in school classrooms and state agencies. We've got a $200 million Medical Center that were invested so when people talk to you about the skiff you are really familiar with it and you tell them how it works and give them the details to get the lightbulb moment where they say, oh, now I get this does make some people say there's this is too easy. People say this is to symbols gotta be a catch and really there's not. It's just simple economics and this is not a savings plan where we have to put back money and defer cost going away. We've got cash available why you said in this year's budget.

We've got $1.4 billion allotted for construction and a way we can use it right away and that's why we can do it so much quicker than what you want a bond. Yes, people say whoa. Interest rates are low. 2.3% and that's true but you know is lower than 2.3% 0% interest and that's where exciting because I just simply using good physical principles living within our means and then just simply not borrowing the money but putting the money in two capital needs over time we can generate massive amounts of capital and much and much needed for infrastructure, crustal, once again it is called the state capital and infrastructure fund or skiff and it is been put forward as a way to help fund school construction in North Carolina without having to take out the bond referendum that would lead to billions of dollars in extra interest.

One of the people who is favoring the skiff you just heard in state representative Dean Arp Republican representing Union County X much for joining us think you appreciate a lot more on Carolina journal radio just a moment if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Mark foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education. James Dean Martin, Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Try it today.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got University of North Carolina system is touting recent enrollment numbers. Interim president William Roper offered details to the University's board of governors. We now have record enrollment nearly 240,000 students across the UNC system.

We also have had healthy growth at all three of the NC promise institutions at each of these growth enrollment is due to drive dramatic improvements in student retention. It's clear that our hard work to improve affordability and promote student success is paying off and we appreciate the Gen. assembly's continued support of this important program. The strong showing at these institution reflects what is happening across the entire system. Overall, our undergraduate growth is about 1% and combined undergraduate and graduate enrollment is up 1.3% we seen a slight drop in incoming freshmen, which coincides with the slowdown in the growth of high school graduates nationwide, but we've also seen a dip in the number of transfer students, which we think might reflect a strong job market that is siphon students away from the community colleges but more students at our institutions are staying in school and improving their odds of graduating in a timely fashion at a time when in attendance at other universities is falling our enrollment continues to break records, Roper singled out one particular campus that had recent bad press.

Months ago, many were concerned about ECUs enrollment and financial stability. I'm happy to report that these concerns have not been realized. Overall enrollment at ECU has more or less remain flat with a number of new freshmen is up considerably by 4.6%. The number of new transfer students is also up slightly. Things also stabilized financially interim Chancellor Gerlach is now actively involved in approval of all expenditures, including four auxiliary bonds.

While forecasts initially predicted significant losses for the physician group. These losses were reduced and the budget has been balanced.

In addition, the anticipated $10 million transfer from ECU physicians to athletics proved unnecessary University has paid down $20 million of debt and as of the end of the fiscal year June 30 ECUs unrestricted cash fund balance was $231 million active work has been done to reduce operating expenses for fiscal years 20 and 21, and in July Standard & Poor's confirmed the University's AA minus stable credit rating.

That's UNC system interim president William Roper. He's discussing recent enrollment trends at East Carolina and throughout the state will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.

And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlot.org/podcast Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely with Hadlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time – that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and was locked to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnmop.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy 50 years after the first moon landing.

Much of America revisited that major human accomplishment at Western Carolina University Center for the study of free enterprise hosted a discussion with the youngest man ever to walk on the moon. Charlotte native Charlie Duke.

I grew up South Carolina and it was not a dream of the when I was a kid like that about a thousand people by mail town and told my mom will walk on the moon model of a psychiatric hospital on water serve my country so I chose the Naval Academy Naval Academy fell in love with airplanes and it was exciting in the early 50s will 53 owned 57 when I graduated and so was an Air Force Academy and you could go anywhere for so I think debate going on in my mind Air Force, Navy aviation will in my senior year I had this physical and not massive doctor, but the Navy doctor said midshipmen do you have is your right.

You don't qualify for naval aviation. But the Air Force will take you Air Force is the best decision made my life the students here. Keep your antenna and be conscious of some little knowledge is in your career to take you this way that way. This way that way and that's what happened to me an important event of the late 1950s helped transform Charlie Duke's life. When I got the flight school in 1957 when that was in October that year and the beginning of the space-age. Years later, NASA selected some last months and the first they begin their training. By this time I was in Germany serving as a fighter pilot and have a wonderful job. But the Air Force and we want you to go back to the test, and go to graduate school and if I do say no to that, and stayed in Germany another year. I never would've been to the moon.

Duke looks back at his role in the Apollo space program was very exciting in their early days of the Apollo program and Apollo. We have nine missions that goat went to the moon and I got to work on five of those missions.

I was on backup crew for Apollo 13. I was in backup crew for Apollo 17 blue moon on Apollo 16 and was in mission control for Apollo 1011 and if you listen to the landing 50 years ago there long strong Buzz Aldrin landed on the move allows the God mission control talking to him when they landed on the moon and it was a very exciting time. The tension in mission control is out of sight.

As you can imagine, because we were at a lot of problems on these that we had communication problems with computer problems we have trajectory problem and that led to fuel problem so we get down to minimum fuel and I called Eagle 60 seconds and he had 60 seconds delay and then I called Eagle. 30 seconds and he still worn on the ground, but they will close in 13 seconds later I heard Buzz say engine stop no contact engine stop and we knew they were on the ground and tension just sort of evaporated in mission control. We actually landed on the moon and nail long strong came back a few seconds later says very calmly Houston tranquility base here. The Eagle has landed and I was so excited I couldn't pronounce. Tranquility came out twang, but I corrected myself and I said you got a bunch of guys about the term blue were breathing again thanks a lot and literally we were holding our breath in mission control astronaut Charlie Duke praises the work of the people who remain on the ground.

Mission control save the day.

Also, many Apollo flights we got Apollo 13 crew back because of mission control we got Apollo 11 landed on the moon because the work of mission control.

I got the land on the moon because of the work of mission control and in every fly, something happen that mission control had figured out and give us a go or no go. If the effect they always figured it out. They always knew what to do and give us that avenue that we could go will continue the mission and Apollo 13. Of course we didn't land because we had this major problem, but mission control solve the problem. We had a spacecraft that they were in. It was made for two guys for three days now we have three guys for four days. You make it like so was a big problem and what they they did it and we they recovered the crew safely. What about Charlie Duke's own trip to the moon.

Apollo flight was 11 days we spent 72 hours on the moon.

We had three excursions on the moon. Duke narrated video with his moon adventures. This is my most embarrassing moment. By the way, and as I disappear.

The camera follows me around and you'll see I've got a dumbbell in my harm. When is $10 million worth of movie experiments right here, and as I'm walking out the all but I in 16 gravy.

They just lightly and just rolled over once and I picked them up and they were not damaged at all about the moon's surface moon is covered with very very fine white powder which is actually pulverized rock moon is rough and not no roads up there, but no traffic either so and we filled out a lot you can imagine that you can't see your feet and you and go get up.

I gotta get one more income so much of Duke's work involved collecting moon rocks.

Some of them are now located at Western Carolina University. We ended up collecting 213 pounds a moonstone here. I'm trying to do it by myself and did work very well so I had to determine and I can't tell you why I wanted that rock I got the rock this time of peace in the rock that I dropped the bag when Charlie Duke left the moon a piece of him remain. I left picture of my family on the moon boys were five and seven at the time Charles is now 54 and he's angry with South Carolina and with a big family. We left the car on the moon and we go back in the orbit and if you want $8 million car with a dead battery. I can tell you where to go. That's Charlie Duke, Charlotte, native Apollo astronaut youngest man to walk on the moon in a recent featured speaker at Western Carolina University overture with North Carolina journal radio in a moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the germline foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms in the past decade here in North Carolina.

So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. When you look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John lock foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio climbed onto Martina's good transportation policy begins by respecting people's choices.

That's according to the John mock foundation's director of regulatory studies John Sanders.

He wrote about this in a recent piece posted@johnlocke.org out the wrong approach to transportation policy that would be trying to force people and options that really don't meet their needs.

And here in North Carolina. It looks like we overwhelmingly choose personal vehicles for commuting. John joins us now to talk about some of these really fascinating statistics that John welcome back to the program next okay so we North Carolinians apparently really really like our cars and trucks tell us about some of the data you found. Yes, I've been looking at the Bureau of transportation's statistics to very hard word, spit out, sometimes taking fast data, and over the last few years all ready North Carolinians were preferring their their cars for commuting, but in the last few years that preference has increased slightly. It's really interesting because there's been so much pressure. John and I think I'm advocates for public transit have been telling us know we gotta get out of your car. He got have more than one people in your car. Yet the date is going the other way interesting. What I think people just intrinsically like their cars in effect what one of the things is not in those data are that people are taking things like over and lift it, which means they would prefer other people's cars and then even taking taxis or public transit is it that people just want to be alone, even if they have a driver driving them in the case of Uber or left but they just want their personal time. I think part of it is personal space absolutely would be for me but also with your own vehicle you suddenly have a range of options you have more free time to go out for lunch and and more choices available to you.

You can make stops on the way from home.

You can go to see your kids practice or you know just the range of options is so much greater than if you drive and drop in, drop the car off and then take public transit or if you take some of these other options. Carpal was also surprised to look at the data that you posted in your piece John about carpooling because every now and then as I'm driving on the roads and I happen to commute with my husband so most of the time we have two people in our vehicle but I see two people in cars fairly frequently.

So I expected the data to show that carpooling would be there holding steady or becoming more popular, but that's not what you found. No, the carpooling portion of driving taking cars to work fell slightly, and I think what the data are showing especially in 2013 we had just been coming out of the prolonged recession. And so in the ensuing years, especially North Carolina that the economy has been getting better and I think people are opting more more for having their own vehicles and so they're able to take those and that may explain a little bit about Ted the information you found on public transportation tell us about that.

Who is actually taking public transit very, very few people about 1%, North Carolina, and that's down and yet John we see so much emphasis set from critically local elected officials who are always working on long-range plans for additional public transportation. So what is this data say about that. I think one of the things the data is telling us that we need to be paying attention to what people choose it. We're going to have to deal the fact that we are very spread out in North Carolina. This is not a bad thing even though transit planners want to make it sound like that it makes things difficult in the cities but it's a good thing to have room to grow in space to move and if we can expand into the suburbs and and drive in more power to us. I think that's a good thing you mentioned earlier that time were seeing more and more people wanting to drive in their cars and we are seeing some people actually taking them Uber and lift so another innovation. But there's also another sector of the commuting workforce that actually isn't commuting because they're working from home right working from home was the other major growth since the section that we saw in commuting choices between 2013 and 2017 that grew by several percentage points and so it's now at 6.1%. If you're looking people take cars either commuting driving alone or which is 87% and people who are taking carpels and then end up being 9/10 but then 60% of those who were left were working from home, which is another thing that we can do, especially with the increase in broadband capabilities and smart work. You would think that there would be a lot of local officials who are really trendsetters innovators they talk a lot about ideas of making things easier and faster for people to do that they would pick up on some of the statistics about Hoover and left about them working from home and say you know what maybe we need to think about our transportation planning a little bit differently give us a sense of what we're seeing across North Carolina with transportation planners are they heating the data there's generally a push for for more bussing and more rail rail seems to be more romantic in the ideas of planners and especially media. But blessing at least if you're going to look at public transit and blessing at least offers a choice in a range of routes. Once you build a rail line, you're stuck with it. Bussing can adjust to people's choices in ways that rail just simply cannot stop a little bit more about rail because here in North Carolina we have them a rail contingent in the Charlotte area we have on a line there and then there is been a multi-year effort in the triangle for several of the major counties to try to bring. I federally funded at least in part, a rail system to the triangle but done it in a minute its demise, several months ago.

Give us a kind of the landscape of what happened there. Yeah that's it's really complicated and in fast-paced thing to try to get through but basically Durham and Chapel Hill were the ones that went ahead with it in wake County wisely said no and then as planners looked into it with Durham and in in more detail. They started realizing it was going to disrupt school and disrupt the University Duke University is going to disrupt sensitive laboratory things that were experiments going on and it really was just going to be very disruptive for the community for very little gain. I think at one point in that proposal. There was also an idea that maybe they would have to start tunneling under at least one road in the Durham area and suddenly a lot of people realize that this is maybe getting a little bit close to us here. The potential reality of the funding coming through and then you stop people rising up and saying what this really is and can work as a project and I think it's at this point I think is practically dead. Interesting that time even though the project would be dead. There are taxes in place to help fund that. So what happens there.

What would you recommend half generally want to return to Texas to unless they are absolutely necessary to make you wonder what the spending the money on that right yeah very interesting. So are the places where actually rail transit does work well John what kind of a landscaper at a geography do you have to have for any of these transit options you need an extremely dense urban location and we simply don't have that in North Carolina we have a very suburban and rural lifestyle. It's not uncommon, particularly in the triangle area for people to live in one county and maybe work one or two counties away. And so the roads is really the number one way and of course this data showing that people want to be in their own personal vehicle and more people working from home. It's really fascinating look at some of these set transportation statistics about North Carolina you can find it in John Sanders latest piece posted that John Locke.org John the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Donna Martinez will join us again next week for more Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the job. To learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina send email to development John Locke done. Call 66 GLS 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina spring bargaining tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so do not merely reflect the station. For more information about the show. Other programs and services of the foundation. John Locke toll-free at 866 JM would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors.

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