Carolina Journal Radio No. 860: Judges call for new congressional map, accept legislative districts

From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome the Carolina Journal radio I Mexico got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. North Carolina continues to take steps to clean up a messy criminal code will hear from one of the leading legislative reformers pushing criminal law or for you also hear from an expert who explains why it's important to distinguish between civil and criminal legal disputes. State lawmakers continue to haggle over funding for the raise the age initiative.

It involves 16 and 17-year-old spent the juvenile justice system, former United Nations Amb. Nikki Haley recently visited Elon University. She shared lessons she's learned dealing with some of the world's most notorious foreign government officials. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us that she has the Carolina Journal headline while it is back to the drawing board literally for 13 congressional districts. Three-judge panel of the North Carolina Superior Court has told state legislators, the congressional districts are too partisan to favorable for Republicans Nevada meet be drawn but at the very same time in a separate ruling that same three-judge panel has approved the redrawn legislative district maps that were submitted to the court by the Gen. assembly, Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina. Journal of course Carolina Journal following every move of this whole issue of these maps were joining us now to talk about what these rulings mean for North Carolina voters and upcoming elections. Welcome*they stop endless court battles. First of all, and with candidate filing supposed to start in just a few weeks now, so a lot of people saying that have to get busy. If for going to need to re-draw those congressional districts. Let's talk about other congressional districts first-round to what's the problem with the court ruled the state constitution.

Gerrymandering was too heavily favored for Republicans to give voters an adequate choice. Basically, essentially Democratic voters in majority Republican districts didn't have an opportunity to elect candidates to represent their point of view, it's a rather contentious opinion, but it is the ruling of the court and elicits appealed and either reversed or upheld. And that's going to be pretty much the way things stand for this round of election did the court give legislators any direction as to how they define too partisan or not partisan enough for just right. Well the what they essentially said was that there were some issues of one person one vote record record are equal access about the sorts of arguments that are made at the federal level, federal courts found unpersuasive with this of the state constitution provides greater protection. Along those lines, and the court while not really telling the legislature how to do this process certainly in its ruling on the legislative maps was very favorable toward the process used there, which gives lawmakers, especially Republican lawmakers who were in the majority of the Gen. assembly.

Some hope that if they adopt a similar process in which they have a number of days of open hearings with public input with live streaming of the events with the computers and cameras on in the committee room at all times.

Someone's there so that the process can be reviewed completely and so that everyone sees was going on as is going on that you will be able to match the court will be able to accept the filing supposed to begin in December were supposed to have a primary in March. Can the legislature get this done in an approved end without having some sort of an impact on that timeline. Yes it's possible because what is going to happen was that in general resolution resolution that was filed right at the end of October as we were recording the segment of the joint resolution said that they were going to come back in mid-November to handle anything dealing with redistricting and also House Speaker Tim Morrissette on October 30 that the redistricting committees for this special round of maps only those numbers really reported very quickly and they would probably go to work. He said sooner rather than later so I could imagine that, certainly by the end of the first week of November, which with his episodes going there already. These maps will have been worked on and possibly even completed by them because if the group came in on November 3.

Conceivably, they could have a set of maps drawn within five or six days and time for people to review and then vote and get them done well before the general supply comes back on the 13th Rick right now.

Of the 13 congressional districts. There are 10 Republicans and three Democrats who represent North Carolina in the U.S. House is not really the issue for the three-judge panel that they think there should be more Democrats and fewer Republican.

Well, that's the issue for the plaintiffs in the case that they think that there should be more Democrats if you Republicans based on the fact that Democrats outnumber Republicans in voter registration, although when it comes to actual results in statewide races. For the most part, Republicans and Democrats are about even with publicans typically having a slight advantage but it's it's it's very close back-and-forth and the plaintiff say look, if all Republicans and all Democrats voted statewide like this. Why can't we have a 76 splitter and 885 split or something more like that to which the argument that I think the judges accepted was that we don't have a system of proportional representation North Carolina thing they did indeed accept the legislature's argument largely that the a lot of this has to do with geography that Republicans tend to be concentrated in the rural districts and Democrats in the urban districts, and so Democratic representatives to keep the districts equal in population are largely fighting over voters in a very small area and so because this Jeep viewed this geographic gerrymandering if you will, which lawmakers can't really do a lot about under our system of your winner take all one representative per district that sort of thing that is very difficult for Democrats to win these districts unless Republicans either allows a candidate.

Democrats want like a great candidate or for other some other up things at play. So that is one of the rulings from this three-judge panel of the Superior Court. Now they also in a separate ruling said that when it comes to these redrawn maps for legislative districts that will be the districts set from which people run to to earn a seat in the Gen. assembly that those redrawn maps are good to go you mentioned the process a few minute ago about how it might go with the redrawing that's now required for those congressional maps in public with a live stream etc. we saw that in the case of the redrawing of these now approved legislative Matthew and so I assume will say something very similar to that again several differences between the congressional maps the legislative maps the first of all members of Congress don't have to live in their district is simply to be a resident of the state.

They will represent in Congress so they don't so they don't have the issue that you have the general assembly for a general assembly member has to live in the district he or she represents, and this became an issue when drawing maps do you consider legislative to consider incumbency is one of the things so that was an issue because you did have several members who worse but the call double bunks of the word you had two people who were in the general assembly who would be representing a running for the same district. If they chose to run again. Now this largely took care of itself. Because I'm not mistaken, all the members who were double booked either play or just didn't plan to run for another term. That same body again so that was taken care of pretty much that's not an issue. Congressional races and in fact observed their number people noted that the general assembly typically doesn't really care a lot about the alleged congressional districts was one of them trying to run for it and try to draw the district and his or her favor. You may well see that in 2022. When we presumably get 1/14 congressional district, you will probably see a lot of jockeying among legislators to figure out who wants that new district or whatever's going on you can probably see a lot of that.

So let's summarize here for folks listening as to what this will mean to them in terms of their vote and the calendar here so the legislative districts have been approved. So good to go right. The candidates will file and you will know who wants to represent your district and you'll know what district you are in and things will go on will have a March primary will have a general election next November. The congressional districts.

However, all likelihood, the legislature will be able to meet the deadline. Changes in the calendar get this right. If the court approves what the legislature doesn't get that to them in time to do that there may not be any delay at all. There may be a slight delay in the filing may not. But the thing is if there's enough of a delay.

Are there other procedural matters that push things back filing will take place until after the first year is quite possible we won't see a congressional primary say until May or something like that so that's what lessor facing if the court doesn't like with legislature.it's a fascinating story of the back-and-forth that in the courts over these election maps Carolina Journal following it. Every step of the way Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief think you should stay with us much more Carolina Journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. Journal.com. You'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles. Outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina Journal.com once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed.

It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio hi Mitch coca, no one knows all the crimes in North Carolina. Worse yet, there's no place to find all of them collected in one spot, but our next guest is working to address that situation.

State representative Dennis Riddell is a Republican from Alamance County.

Welcome to the program. Thank you Mitch. This is an interesting situation that I think a lot of people just don't realize that if you wanted to find out what all the crimes were in North Carolina right now. You really would have a hard time doing it, wouldn't you write mixers many layers of ways, laws, statutes, commission decisions, agency decisions have been used to can analyze behavior much of its needed, but it's so large and so comprehensive that it's hard to get a handle on it.

So what were trying to do in the legislature with our recodifications working group is just gonna pull in. Basically what's out there by criminalized activity at the various levels of our government from the state level all the way down to the local level.

Now there is a chapter in the general statutes which are all the laws that is criminal law but all the crimes are in that one chapter at no they're not. I think you're referring to chapter 14 is rather voluminous section of a lot of dust carry most of the criminal activity which will also find criminalized activity sprinkled throughout several other sections of the law.

Several dozen other sections of the law. If you think you going to chapter 14 and found everything that's criminalized. Wait, there's more because we go down to the administrative agencies and when the legislature passes laws and authorizes administrative agencies, departments to go ahead and fill out through rulemaking things necessary to implement the law. We oftentimes grant them the power to create criminalized activities by rulemaking severity important, very serious and could be abused power given to administrative agency that is to create a crime. So it's something that needs to be a very carefully reviewed which it is typically through the rules review commission in their work, but just getting a handle on what's happening through administrative agencies and departments.

Still, not all of the story.

Wait, there's more. Now you have commissions and boards up to 500 of them across to Carolina that each of them have. I think within their power. Most of them the ability to create a crime for practicing a certain activity without a license for practicing on an entrepreneurial activity without proper certification or training, and vendors. Even though cities and counties and metropolitan sewage districts. So that's got to the bottom tier.

What we allow cities and counties to criminalize behavior through the establishment of ordinances. I think it's all maximum a class III misdemeanor can be done so through infractions which are civil financial penalties or ordinances at the bottom with the cities and counties in municipal sewage districts.

You have this lengthy latter of possibility of a citizen running afoul of the law without an intent to do so we are speaking with representative Dennis Riddell of Alamance County. You mentioned the recodifications working group. This is a group that is gotten together to try to get a handle on health assessment.

Yes, there it started about two years ago in the house and the Senate, working with Sen. Wells, Sen. Daniel and outside myself. My colleague Steve Ross from Alamance County. Also in my call to Carson Smith representative Marcia Moret from Durham and then prison of John representative Brewer all the last three all have good judicial experience from the bench and since a bipartisan group yes or very bipartisan. Is this is an issue that has captured in the rest of the attention of many of the embers of the legislature trying to do something about the over criminalization and difficulty that we find in our current kind of polyglot of criminal code so we can start a reclassification process.

It can be a multiyear task is not something that can be wound up in one session of the legislature will take many years so were at the first steps now of passing legislation to require cities and counties, boards and commissions report from AOC to tell us what is been criminalized out there in the law and North Carolina.

Let's find out how fast the problem is find out what scope we are dealing with with what is criminalized not just by state statute.

But by local ordinance and then decide if these things really need to be there. Is it worth a misdemeanor crime on your record for letting your chickens free range down Main Street or for using silly string, I saw that on a recent newscast escorting some facilities during a certain location is a criminal offense. So I think that would help reduce the over criminalization which is a reality in North Carolina. A simple, well codified, tightly wound efficient criminal code is in the best interest of everyone Republican, Democrat, independent it's good for North Carolina. I will return to something you said just a few moments ago and that was this is going to be a multi-year process.

We know that elected officials often like to deal with something that they can point to right away that came to light. Did something that led to this benefit for this particular group or we passed a law that's good to deal with the problem and take it off the books right away. Why invest so much time and something that you know is good to take a long time to get fixed it many times. It's the long task that has the most evidence that pays the most evidence for the citizens. I'm not afraid to work over couple of years. A couple of different sessions trying to get good things done for the citizens of North Carolina recodifications over criminalization. It's not as jazzy as a tax cuts or it's not as broad Lee embrace the something for education, but it touches every single person's life in North Carolina and if we can come up can come up over at several your process with a more streamlined a simpler and more cohesive. A fairer criminal code that's in everyone's best interests. One of the ways that I've heard this effort described is that people ought to know what the laws are what the crimes are and not have to just depend on their guesswork that they are committing crimes just going about their daily lives grade you would think that in a free country and free society that is pretty much aware of what crimes to avoid what actions to avoid. To avoid being accused of crime, but there's so many sprinkled throughout our law system. Right now our statutes at the state level as her finding of the city and County level and to boards and commissions that we really need a comprehensive bold look at what is out there that the citizens of North Carolina have to be aware of, but which is virtually impossible for them to get the handle on right now when you speak with your colleagues who haven't spent as much time on this issue once they understand what it's about. Are the are they pretty much on board saying all this makes sense. We should do this is very rewarding because you find that it's again bipartisan.

There's interest on the right and the left in the middle. Everybody wants a fair judicial system and that's what that at the root of this call, whole project is to give everybody North Carolina a fair shake in the court system and have everything well defined and well known, and so far as behavior that could run you will follow the law. One of the things that we talk about quite a bit about our system of government is the importance of the rule of law with the criminal code that is out of whack like the one that we have in North Carolina doesn't make it hard to have rule of law believe it does.

And I think the best way to make your laws respected is to make your laws respectable and if there is layer after layer of agency commissions of levels of government that are criminalizing behavior sometimes duplicative, sometimes redundant sometimes encounter contradiction of one another doesn't serve anybody good purpose. We are speaking with representative Dennis Riddell Republican from Alamance County was working on this issue of criminal code recodifications.

Thanks much for joining my pleasure.

Thank you Mitch level on Carolina journal radio just if you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lock foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in the sea and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca state lawmakers recently debated funding for the raise the age program Republican representative Chuck McGrady explained the importance of the funding it's for a program that transforms North Carolina's judicial system that will North Carolina was one of only two states that treated 16 and 17-year-olds as adults within the criminal justice system what the bill basically did is 16 and �17 into the juvenile justice system moving 16 and 17-year-olds to the justice system couldn't be done in one fell swoop, and the reason for that is, it comes with a cost. The juvenile justice system is more intense and simply interchanging the policy didn't change the money House Democratic leader Darren Jackson objected largely because of the way new judges and assistant district attorneys would be doled out across North Carolina.

These are treated 16 to 17-year-old coming through District Court Judge is standing Amanda are two minutes taken employee sign in a deferral agreement and there'll know what and now every one of the 16 to 17-year-olds will be going through juvenile court where they will get a lot more time spent on each individual case for not sending these ADA's in these judges to the counties that will be greatly impacted by raise the age were doing as we've always done it for partisanship for partisan reasons. I think it's important that we think about the counties and how they will be impacted by this raise the age and to the extent we have limited resources, which I think we all recognize that we do we make best use of that by giving them out to the counties that need on the motors Republican Chuck McGrady responded to the complaints from Jackson and other Democrats. If you vote no on the bill your voting to not put any money towards anything related to roulette raise EH and I understand that you know they can be differences of opinion with respect to allocations of DA here or District Judge or even several district judges in several BAs the total amount of money.

There is not a real, significant, and moreover it's more money than we were asked to provide at the time that asked was made. I think the funding of DA is in and judges deputy clerks and are going to be a continuing issue because there not fully and adequately funded.

But we need to do this now House approve the measure on a split vote for Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.

And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlock.org/podcast Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time � that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listened Locke to remember, you can listen to head back@johnmott.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation of Qu�bec, Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca, Elon University recently welcomed former UN ambassador and South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, after praising Elon's recent success. Haley shared lessons from her experience at the United Nations. My travel to places most Americans will never see across the table from representatives of the world's worst regime. When I saw shaped me as a leader. It taught me things about America. It made most arguments on Twitter these days seem very small and great is a weapon of war told me about soldiers ripping her baby from her arms and throwing them into a fine. She told me about being forced to eat the flesh of her own child hearing gives you a new perspective and a new appreciation for the peacefulness of democracy building authoritarian state that literally tracks the movement of all. And when you see China putting into reeducation language or even get their children traditional name anything you gain a new appreciation, freedom of religion, freedom of privacy and marketplaces in Iran around one woman recently when she was caught she say six months in prison herself on fire.

She died a couple of weeks ago. It makes you appreciate the progress we've made in protecting women's right. Haley has learned the lessons perfect. I know that I was born in the 1970's in Bamberg, South Carolina. I grew up a brown girl in black and white world. My dad wore a turban and still does to this day my mom are sorry we were outside my heart hurts when I think about the way people would look at my dad in his chair on his car like so many others just to protect themselves and we were exposed to an apparently very ugly form of politics. For some reason my mother entered my just for an eight years old into the we had a little girl in the late 1970 the organizers crowned Queen. Needless to say, my sister and I need organizers did not want to do it with constellation 5.category for us to see people who are different and usually seated their outsiders. South Carolina is my mother and father had come to a country where no neighbors could determine there were more in America. So they worked hard community opportunity to strive to teach at college opportunity that's Nikki Haley, former South Carolina governor and United Nations ambassador speaking recently at Elon University. Growing up my parents and my sister and me every day. How blessed this country is thinking that his words this thing where we actually are as a nation well is in our values of freedom and human dignity are the source of our national greatness. They are also tools for placement on after spending two years in American writers, peaceful and just world, but other countries feel the same way countries can't tell you how many times represent prime time and again they told me they welcomed our principles the world's Haley recalled Syrian government chemical weapons attack on the village of civilians over, people die in the worst way.

Filming, convulsing 12 children, literally in their own bodily missile strike which is another call me son took me aside in the security contact me to the United States brought in defense of our human right.

What we believe UN security council. The real source of power and influence of the human right, only peace and security deserve their Haley turned her attention back to the home front context to see people who don't think like we do wrong Venezuela with democracy.

It was one country in South America, socialism, corruption is now the poorest countries jail tortures political families three hours in the plaything across the bridge to only meal they might get dull. 24.

It's hard to get emotional about what belongs to whether their speech is politically correct so more things in common are worse things to be grateful preserve himself.

That's Nikki Haley, former South Carolina governor and United Nations ambassador. She delivered these remarks recently at Elon University returned with more Carolina journal radio real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mark foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez in the legal world.

Some things are deemed to be civil violations and you can be sued by person or company or the other way around. You can sue, but some things are deemed to be criminal violations, pitting the accused against government which access the prosecutor free society, and right here in North Carolina. How do we decide what's a civil issue and what the criminal issue.

That question gets to the heart of the John Locke foundation's effort at criminal law reform here in North Carolina. Mike sheets out is the Locke foundation's legal fellow who is leading this project.

He joins us now.

Mike welcome back to the show you the table for us if you would why is the John Locke foundation concerned about issues of criminal law, criminal law is a very powerful tool for the government right it goes beyond just private citizens being able to enforce their rights against each other as you describe the civil law the criminal law says we can use the resources of the state to come after you to seize your life to seizure liberty to seize your property and so we need to be very mindful of how that tool is being used and unfortunately, particularly throughout the 20th century, but it's stems back hundreds of years we've we've use this tool to frequently. For too many things and that stifle business that stifled the entrepreneurial spirit. When people don't know if they can be charged with a crime for doing a certain conduct in their business a certain way that stifled people's use and development of their own property. So we want to make sure that these laws are properly contained so that we can really enable freedom that would our conception of freedom and and and a lot of people's entrepreneurial spirit that sort of thing. So when you say Mike that these tools are talking about the power of government to actually tell someone you have done something wrong, wrong, and potentially working to take away your property, or make you pay in some way for that right there in their use of the criminal law specifically to do that because not just about we seizure liberty we seize your property and throw you in jail we find you goes beyond that a criminal conviction as is like like a scarlet letter right person who is convicted of a crime carries that around other criminal record for number of years, perhaps the rest of their life and that has we call collateral consequences makes it harder to find a job harder departed to get housing harder to get public benefits. If you find yourself down and out so it it it has lasting consequences far beyond the descendents of the for the fine that's paid as we want to make sure that that tool is constrained, who decides that in North Carolina right now.

A lot of people decide that a North Carolina I think the first body that we would think of is that the general assembly. General assembly makes the laws.

General assembly gives created art are general statutes but in those general statutes. They made a number of delegation. So they've delegated this power out to administrative bodies all elected officials who have their specialties but who defied criminal behavior by rule through the rulemaking process also delegated that out to County commissions town councils city councils who have the ability to create ordinances that are many times made criminal by default does not mean that there is essentially too many people involved in the kitchen yes and so part of your effort is to help educate lawmakers as to how this works in the first place. The role that they play in it, and the role that others play but then also to recommend a narrowing of the people who have this power, possibly at the very least we need we need to reassess this delegation of power so that power absolutely belongs to the general assembly normal contest that but these delegations of power. We need to we need to reassess any the statute that gives the the local bodies.

The County commissions town councils the ability to create these crimes is general and it creates a great criminalization by default unless the jet be the local body opts out. That's kind of everybody is a very broad delegation and so it's worth revisiting to see if maybe this can be narrowed or eliminated, depending on who you talk to. They will have their different preferences, but because you're asking for who have power and influence to give up some of that power and influence and that's that's always a pushback situation that rarely goes well. Not an easy thing to do. But in order to make the criminal system work well to avoid the kind keep calling him silly crimes with the frivolous crimes.

The V the silly string issue or the height of your your lawn letting your lawn grow too tall. These are the kinds of things shouldn't be criminalized and so we need to revisit that delegation to make sure this doesn't happen in the future. Is there also the same or similar broad power of these different people and agencies to determine exactly what punishment is for any of these things that's that's not as good.

That's fairly constrained usually so if it's a delegation to an administrative body bill say that a violation of a rule promulgated under this article is a babe class II misdemeanor so it's at least constrained in that sense, the delegation to local bodies is always a class III misdemeanor that allowed to impose anything beyond a class III misdemeanor, which is the lowest but that low level comes with a catch that low level of punishment means that your constitutional right to counsel to be represented by counsel doesn't attach so you have to represent yourself, or pay for your own attorney. In that instance so Mike with all of this in mind and obviously is complex � you have a law degree so you understand a lot of this, but many of our listeners don't. So why is this important to the average person who is living and working in North Carolina what is it really mean to our lives again as we said earlier, we would open up people's rights, their own freedom there. The right to start a business the right to do something with their property without the threat of criminal enforcement for making a misstep. You know, we expect people as his fellow citizens to hold us accountable when we create harm to someone else but the criminal law shouldn't be used. To direct that behavior.

That's a very powerful weapon that the state possess a very powerful sword is so what were trying to do why this matters to the average person is the it keeps them from finding themselves in jeopardy for things they never even knew were crime in the first place. So moving forward as you're working on trying to help lawmakers understand what the problem is and the potential solutions what your recommendations will we need to rewrite the caramel code which said that over and over and over. I think there are three principles that can undergird that that criminal law performed the first despair notice. People need to know what is a crime, law enforcement needs to know what is a crime in the legislature needs to be aware of what it what is a crime and the only way we can do that is to keep these laws from from piling up again. The second principle, the news undergird reform is legislative intentionality. We need to make sure that before criminalizing something that is not already criminal so we were not adding unnecessary volume. We need to reassess the criminal code periodically to ensure that obsolete crimes are being removed off the books and third is culpability for going to really use the power of the state to punish someone we need to make sure that there some sort of intent or some sort of really bad act that's been committed recklessly before we punish them not strictly liable for wearing the wrong kind of bathing suit on the beach. While it is a fascinating area that the John lock foundation has now gotten involved in Mike's sheet cell is the legal fellow who is leading this effort is a very involved effort as you can understand that a legislature has made out already a few steps in the right direction can be collecting and trying to figure out exactly where all of these criminal violations exist not only in state law. But in these ordinance ordinances around the state at the local level with you again thank you very much. Thank you. That is all the time.

We have the program this week listening on behalf of Mitch Martinez join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John lock to learn more about the John Locke donation programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to John Locke call 66166534636 Carolina Journal radio is the John lock foundation airline is maintaining Carolina broadcast system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so nearly more information about the show. Other programs foundation John lock toll-free at 8681 radio affiliates across Carolina Carolina Journal radio. Thank you for listening.

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