Carolina Journal Radio No. 922: COVID-19, government lockdowns create special challenges for businesses that sell alcohol

From chair to current attack and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state bar owners across North Carolina are challenging cope with 19 shutdown orders in court.

You learn details about the suit involving the popular Greenville bar that is been closed since March US House of Representatives voted recently to decriminalize marijuana to hear from one North Carolina congressman who raised red flags during a speech on the House floor, North Carolina voters elected their first black lieutenant governor will hear him share his top priorities for his new job. It will hear from a former state environmental official he's earned reappointment to a board that offers science advice to federal regulators. Those topics are just ahead. But first, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline among the North Carolina businesses hardest hit by Gov. Cooper's Cove 19 shutdowns are bars, taverns and distillers.

Very few customers if any means very little if any revenue to pay the bills keep the doors open and pay your employees, but some are fighting back and not only here in North Carolina. John Trump is managing editor of Carolina Journal Carolina Journal of course is been following the plight of these business owners very, very closely.

John joins us now to talk about where we are most effective programming's what you hear. In general, John from North Carolina bar and tavern owners, as you've been not only following but writing columns and new stories about the biggest word is just frustration.

There's nothing they can do only been close. Basically, Fontan purposes since March when Cooper put in the lockdowns and bars really have been the only businesses are not open you know and bars, restaurants mean, you know, common sense tells you a restaurant as a bar can be a bar but bars typically a dispute been shut down and others put in limited seating the most on that don't have the capacity and it is is is is like for example, because 1 Stone Tunl. fable three just closed at 40 miles yesterday and I think REL reported 100 at least 100 in the truck. The triangle closed in and there's been some relief money, but rents exorbitant like poorhouses tried to supplement with a record shop and enter try to be creative about it, but they I think without a doubt been harvested by this you mentioned exact Medford. He also leads an organization that cannot coalesce to try to get the ear of the public. The governor and legislators began working on a bar and tavern Association previous its name, but they for some reason have not been able to get people who have the juice to do something about it. Frankly, to help them or to look at the issues and about seating and comparing them to hotels, etc. right and you know that they tried to move the needle his head. He's held protests coming, but like I say, some bars have done what they can put a partition so on so forth by the out to be a restaurant to. So if you're just a bar which and technically North Carolina is no such thing as a bar of private club you know when word screws and they just tried the day they talk a lot like us of the health they've met with the governor and for whatever reason, I think throughout this pandemic bars been the target because they're seen as a gathering place and I think the picture of a bar. We all see it differently but I think the picture of the bars with you soon.

Glenwood on Glenwood South on Saturday night where people huddled together and in fact Inova brewery which is always packed in there though because her make their own product in a bar next to right next to it the sure to send courtyard theoretically can serve drinks, although they do and it kinda moved into the space of mind they try to get around. But it's unfortunate that I think the governors unilaterally is put them in this position. In fact at December fighting back beyond talking about it and trying to let the public know what's going on with their businesses we have. For example, a couple of lawsuits. One of them. Greenville bar is suing. And then there's that a suit to have a coalition of a handful of other bars also suing.

Do they have a chance. Legally coming before having the bowling alley soothed and then got to the point and coupler, but a couple other losses got to the point that with a friendly Supreme Court Cooper side was not going anywhere. I think now the spring the courts are friendlier. However, looking at it realistically with with the variance with the covert variance now and the numbers shoot through the roof there. I mean, quite honestly, not a lot of hope until there's a vaccine until the vaccine. We have a you know community herd immunity but nothing will happen. I'm afraid Cooper talks in the imago back on fact there's been a lot of attention now on the slow rollout of the actual vaccination plan because the vaccines are now available in limited supplies. Yes, but they have been shipped now for a number of days to states and, in fact it governor Cooper now looks like at the urging of at least one Democratic state lawmaker calling out the National Guard to try to get this thing going really frustrating and fascinating. Frankly development on this whole issue, bars, etc. at the federal level came up a few days ago when you wrote about this Johnny Carolina Journal.com. We had some of those manufacturers who said hey I can't open. I gotta do something were in the middle of a pandemic. I would make some of this hand sanitizer tell us the story of what happened to them. Well that the there were some euros shut down. I couldn't really their tasting rooms were closed right you know you can.

They a lot of open bars to serve cocktails all that's closed so I think a big part of it was let's help out. We have the ethanol we can make ethanol right which is the base for alcohol and of the baser hand sanitizer said let's jump in and and do this and many didn't most of them came away were solar for unit cost basically just look try to keep going and try to help the community as Scott Maitland, who owns top of the Tail. He's like when a pandemic just trying to help him out in the business of making hand sanitizer and I think it was reason, who broke reason magazine about the story that they distillers got hit with a $14,000 tax bill or fee from the FDA for what because they were making an over-the-counter drug it with it during the cares acting reclassified hand sanitizers over-the-counter drug so it's part of the always on their making hand or not. The stores are hand sanitizer manufacturer so that the papacy's address of the federal government wants money right right I guess it was just the way there there doing this and you know it it's one of those things. When you get a bill you to slip something into it and I think that's is what they did but as you mentioned, the folks at reason they have to call it my all that and what happened now. I thought about and discuss the distillers of association in the United States is zero screen body murder, so to speak. The aged Health and Human Services step says, oh, this is more of a legislative rule they overstep their but the FDA overstep them but some are not connected, paid 14,000 drop it know it was dropped as a support, like you, and course of the media to say look this is happening. This is not right because of the stores was his head with his 14,000 bill dollar bill walks crazy back here to North Carolina. John really what's the future for bars and taverns and distillers out as you and I are talking, we are at this point where were trying to speed up the vaccinations to the National Guard. Is that really what it's tied to we run.

It's unfortunate because we are such harsh hot streak distillers were were going wild. You know the craft cocktail in downtown Raleigh before the pandemic come in. It was a haven for craft cocktails and then breweries bruise going great guns at some of them still are, but will have to see. I don't think there's will be any more movement as far as the blood Gen. assembly goes late. They've done you know expanded the takeouts and and things like that but there won't be much more so will see after pandemic will just have to wait and see if our as more and more North Carolinians are vaccinated. If the restrictions imposed by governor Cooper will be relaxed a bit of what it means that ultimately for these hard-working businesses. John Trump is managing editor of Carolina Journal.

You can read the piece he wrote about this hand sanitizer fee@carolinajournal.com. And of course all his reporting and commentary on the alcohol industry in North Carolina this much more Carolina Journal radio to come in just tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind.

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It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for our daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you that Carolina Journal radio I Michiko Guy North Carolinians have been living with lockdowns and other restrictions tied to covert, 19 for more than nine months. Most of us have had to adjust our lives in some ways.

Some business owners have been forced to shut down and stay closed. The entire time. Owners of one of those businesses are going to court to fight the shut down joining us to explain why is there attorney Jessica Thompson works with the Pacific legal foundation. Welcome to the program. Thank you. Mitch tell us about the business that you're working with. This is a popular bar in Greenville. That's right so I'm working with my clients Crystal and Rob Waldron and a ran cut 519.

It's a private bar in downtown Greenville home of the ECU pirates and their popular with locals and a graduate student like what happened to them when governor Cooper declared the state emergency said anything forced closed since March 17 and that's over nine months now since governors, Cooper state of emergency.

They just do not have an outdoor patio space. So, even under the governor's most recent orders that allowed small small patrons to gather on outdoor spaces without an outdoor patio space club 519 is still been forced closed and that I understand is part of your legal argument that governor Cooper shut down a lot of businesses at the beginning of this pandemic. But since then has allowed a number of businesses that sell alcohol to reopen, but not all of them and your clients are among the losers in this whole arrangement yet. We like to say that he's impeding economic winners and losers, and fortunately we've been on the losing end keys allowed not only bars and restaurants but bars that breweries wineries distilleries even bottle shops open and you'll note that in many of those places you don't even have to serve food so there's no reasonable distinction between these businesses we think is just pure economic favoritism part of the issue here is that your clients club 519 are what's called a private bar and that's different from other types of establishments that sell alcohol rights under North Carolina's loss private bar is essentially a bar without a kitchen, but there are many other bars that do not surveyed in North Carolina that have been allowed to open such as berries, distilleries and wineries so unfortunately that's really the. The only distinction, and that's not a reason to keep them close so you are making a constitutional argument. Tell us a little bit about what what you were telling the court as the reason for why Gov. Cooper's orders should be struck down. Sure. So not only I do not Carolinians enjoyed the rights of the fruits of their labor, which means that they enjoy the right to pursue a common occupation, including owning and running a small business and you being a bartender and it's also unconstitutional under North Carolina's Constitution to treat like businesses differently.

The private bars are no different from the bars inside of the restaurant or any other establishment that's been allowed to open and they're just fighting to have equal treatment under the law. So basically, you would have no case if governor Cooper had forced all bars to remain closed and stay close because everyone would be treated the same, but he's been treating different bars or different establishments in different ways which which makes the case well I think that makes our case particularly strong and it makes it you know a moral outrage.

To be honest that there are more things you know whenever I thing that we have a right to pursue a common occupation. That's for all restaurants. They have a constitutional right to be open unless there is a strong reason and it's tied to a particular government interest in here is just not closely tied whenever bars and restaurants can institute new safety precautions to take care of their clients and keep them safe and have a 19 so even if there were this distinction, you'd probably still be pursuing this as something that the governors pursuing that really does violate some basic constitutional rights. That's right. And another point I should raise it. You know were nine months into the state of emergency and it's really the legislature's role to be crafting a policy response to the public health crisis caused by Kevin. 19. It's not the role for the executive for one man to decide the entire policy for the whole state and were also bringing constitutional challenges along those lines tell us little bit about what has happened with your clients is obviously that the constitutional issues are important, but were talking about real people and real impacts.

How has the shut down affected clients will it's it's had a huge economic and emotional toll on them. This is then their pride and joy. For the last 18 years. This is their primary source of income. And so for the last nine months they've had to take on other jobs to help make ends meet. They've been lucky to receive a PPP loan and unemployment as well. But those funds have run out and said they are really desperate for the courts to step in and to allow them to open with reasonable restrictions about their workers.

Obviously it affects them. But anyone who was working there is a server bartender or any other type of job they can't be working either right. In fact, some of those employees have left for other states where they were able to you know continue their work as servers and bartenders that we know that there have been a number of cases challenging Gov. Cooper's executive orders, and so far none of them have borne fruit in the ultimate decisions that were made either the state Supreme Court level or lower courts. Why do you think that this particular case is going to be able to succeed well and lucky to work with the Pacific legal foundation and we are representing Crystal and her bar club 519 pro bono and so what that means is where offering it to our services free of charge and were willing to go the distance I were willing to take these cases to the North Carolina Supreme Court to vindicate their constitutional rights and we also believe that the length of this state of emergency has just got gone on so long now I were nine months and it's not that the same situation that it was three months into the emergency were hopeful courts will recognize that one of the things I noted some of the material that came out as part of this was a discussion of the way the governor Cooper has gone about instituting these orders. We know that look together. Dan Forest took him to court over ignoring the Council of State, does that play any role in your suit as well. Well, we think that the emergency management act which governor Cooper purports to grant him authority to issue these orders that they grant too much power to the executive if they do indeed support his Aggies. That statute at issue these orders so we are making some similar constitutional arguments. Although not the exact same from the Lieut. Gov.'s case, but it sounds as if, regardless of the case based on your reading of what's happened. You like to see the Gen. assembly.

Take some action on the emergency management act to help address this. Yes, that would be great and you know it's unfortunate that the Gen. assembly tried to do just that in May and June of this year that governor Cooper vetoed those efforts and so were hopeful that the courts can step in and mediate this dispute between the two branches and also vindicate the constitutional rights of all North Carolinians obviously is an attorney working with the client that the main thing you want is to get a win for your client allow them to open back up. Are there some other things that you hope come out of this lawsuit in terms of how the governor proceeds in the future or how executive orders are treated, that sort of thing. Yes, I'd say there's two things that we really hope that come out of this lawsuit, one we would like to reassert the fundamental right of all North Carolinians to earn a living and we would also like to reassert that the separation of powers in our constitutional government is for the protection of individual liberty. Jessica Thompson is an attorney with the Pacific legal foundation. Jessica, thanks so much for joining thinking more on Carolina journal radio just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin, Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com.

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Critics included North Carolina's ninth district Congressman Republican Dan Bishop. The fact that the more actors on the floor at this time epitomizes Democrats misplaced priorities, but it also puts on display their inclination to reckless disregard of consequences. Just like the clarion call to defund the police followed rapidly by astonished surprise over the ensuing surge in violent Democrats rush to legalize marijuana without any heed or response to the rising epidemic of drug driving across the country would mean more dead and injured Americans on our highways. Consider this since 2013 in Washington state the number of fatal crash drivers who tested positive for THC has more than doubled in Vermont since 2010 fatal crashes linked to marijuana use have skyrocketed by 173%. Following that states decriminalization 47% of Oregonians who die died in a car crash in 2018 tested positive for marijuana.

According to the Oregon State police more Indiana drivers and deadly car crashes test positive for drugs than for alcohol. The data are clear when governments liberalize marijuana laws, motorists and passengers die law enforcement tells us they lack a reliable roadside test to detect marijuana use or uniform standard to measure marijuana toxicity, yet our defund the police Democratic colleagues rush to change the status quo across the entire country while refusing even to consider my common sense amendment that would require the Department of Transportation to develop and prescribe best practices for testing drivers suspected of marijuana impairment. My amendment would help law enforcement keep people safe. But Democrats would rather prioritize criminals North Carolina sheriff recently called drug driving. Quote one of the leading killers in our state. Just like Democrats efforts to defund police the more acts unintended consequences will include increased danger for our families. I urge my colleagues to support American safety by voting against this bill. That's North Carolina's ninth district Congressman Republican Dan Bishop speaking on the floor of the US House of Representatives.

Bishop explained recently why he opposed more act. It's a bill to decriminalize marijuana across the country will return with more Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.

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Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko Kime North Carolina voters have elected Republican Mark Robinson to serve as the states first black lieutenant governor Robertson discussed his new job.

During a recent online presentation for the John lot foundation is just amazing to me.

You know we have a lot of people in this country like to talk about how bad this nation isn't all the problems as possible from all wall walk in this being all my children the same lot you know a lot of people made history this transition.

It makes years ago as ONE half years ago. All you universe. Now I am all about going the wrong people more calamitous basis for an old dog. Only in America can suck like this about, we just built Robinson would like to see more public involvement in important state government decisions were doing what was I would like to go over dissolve so well all be in bold decision, but it will save a lot of lives are so great about is always the regular, one or two people talk about what government when it should be. All accommodation should be coming to make sure it all started going to me about this control is good Lenny is right, I said this several times. I don't believe the people of Moco child is able to make decisions to keep employees cited the families like I believe the promises of wisdom to render churches in their businesses and we should control back and that's a message about just would like to relate although as a member of the statewide elected council of state. Robinson will have a chance to offer regular input to Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper.

What does Robinson think about that role. Jezebel is not far won't be missed by just betraying writing books we can't change the governor's bar. We at least want to make sure people know about all we're going all and do not let someone else. That's what a lot of elected governor is cut out the legislature to simply use his executive so we need to make sure the people of Moco and understand the remaining they need to let go of the greatest be coming with the rest of the Gospels state legislature to make sure they're not acting all single single handedly will not explore strange go to Cooper's mom again. I'm not sure we can do that. That's North Carolina's new Lieut. Gov. Mark Robinson speaking recently and online presentation for the John Locke foundation. Despite his concerns about Gov. Roy Cooper's actions. Robinson thinks people of all political persuasions can support some common goals things we want to start working on immediately, so we talk about is trying to figure level barriers.

We call it, trying to make this miracle on the gold standard. A nation be an extra. I don't think there's anybody that would be against saving the cost to make sure that both Alana sets the standard and embraced by all veterans with careful and I think there's any issue this be able to bring us together in the legislature.

Every issue that the government see all is going to be that one issue in a stock is near and dear to my heart all in this day maybe illustrates around his neck of backbone and we seem to drift look at so volatile about how the day is increasing. You know, I talked to Mayberry's across the state and really do feel left out like they have not gotten what they are all on the battlefield. A new service formation and the stock was something about it, not believe that the very first thing out of what nonstate in no nations that do not text veterans pensions all there is no tax on rivers, but I would very much like to see both Alana start the process of becoming the very first thing we could do it to make a big statement, veterans of Moco. I respect you. We love you always honor your sacrifice and we jump at all that gold standard here. Robinson is interested in tackling regulatory burdens for veterans. One of the things I've been talking with some veterans described used restrictions that employers have all all the training received in the military. Don't some of these folks come out and all the highly qualified people but they don't have the training they need to move into be stopped and we need to look in some ways we could easily express bespoke Great experience of the big data in the military can be easily transported to Sebago Mark switching gears. Robinson also addressed school choice and opportunity scholarship vouchers for low income students. We talk about opportunity stalls say it like this. There's no reason why I don't want any alteration any elected official should be against us because the bottom line is this public education has been declining for many years and we all sing we all see the problems of public education we all understand is a complex. It's a complex issues going take many years to fix.

We understand it issue do need to be fixed but we do not collect need to allow children who have the opportunity to succeed. We do not need to let because we have failed all public school goals are published. It is too important to their children in need of layout and how the whale should be given away and we should all allow them to get an education is Bill become his you know folks always talk about empowering people. They always talk about you know how there's talent everywhere how we seek out talent get that opportunity big local when it comes time to actually look at opportunities all hope so it really confuse me about whether or not you want them to continue to fail under these old system is the new Lieut. Gov. highlighted another key priority. One of the most crucial things I think we got right now is long, long, is getting out of my hometown recently been like this. The number to live in the United States that is absolutely atrocious watch breeze bubble come back from the depths of despair a male Boston downtown, but I was growing up, placed desolate close down or the Davis Star city Council about city Council or build our downtown so we could be proud of all of the shots, a place where you walk with your family. You go down to downtown Maryland business. Although the streets we have embarrassed city Council will extend the lease and we see this all across the country of people demonizing law brings false narratives about our police officer Lee Saltz of violent simply know that it doesn't back somebody in the capacity of elected officials has got to stand up law and law that's Mark Robinson Republican elected as North Carolina's first black Lieut. Gov. he delivered these remarks during an online presentation for the John Locke foundation will return with more Carolina journal radio really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez, President-elect Joe Biden's choices to lead key federal regulatory and energy agencies choices that included a North Carolina named Michael Reagan had the EPA while all those choices could spell trouble for North Carolina farmers land owners and businesses are states of former lead regulator Dr. Don Vandermark, now a senior fellow at the John Mott foundation joins me now to explain what could be ahead, not only for our state for the entire country will Biden administration Don welcome back to the shelf before we talk about the President-elect's choices for these key agencies that congratulations are in order to you because you have been reappointed to a key scientific advisory board for the federal EPA congratulations tell us what you do well to the large group of 40 scientists from around the country and what what the board is actually Safeco boards. Formalistic, but what we do is essentially advised the administrator of the EPA on scientific questions. Now those questions can be asked by the administrator or they can be put forward by the board itself. Essentially we put reports together and make recommendations. And this is your second term.

He served one apparently didn't offend anybody. They ask you back. You will be serving for another three years heavily correct. He said something down I think is important for listeners to know I mentioned that you are the former lead regulator here in North Carolina you were the Sec. of the Department of environmental quality during the Pat McCrory years when he was governor, but you are a scientist, and that is important. I know that you consider yourself not only an educated scientist with multiple degrees but also an environmentalists. Some people might think. How is that possible thing that you are a free marketer you're more in the conservative side help us understand is actually for those of us who actually care about the environment, for the sake of the Berman for political purposes. We recognize that the only way you can have a robust environment management program is to have a robust economy to really don't. You don't see the kind of environment protections we have here in this country in countries that don't have the kind of economy God doesn't make sense and in fact here in North Carolina. Another one of your roles is that you sit on a keyboard here in our state regarding barbell management tell us about that right. That's the board that actually has authority to pass rules for the department and and that's a very formalistic group and it has representatives of the government Gen. assembly and a very very good group has a lot of robust discussions. Obviously, your background, your experience or education.

Your highly sought after your here at the Locke foundation is a senior fellow doing a lot of writing, by the way can follow that it John lock.org so interesting that the new presidential administration Joe Biden has been selecting key position holders.

One of them actually is your successor here in North Carolina at the Department of environment equality.

His name is Michael Reagan. He has been the secretary of DEQ here and Mr. Biden has selected him to head the EPA what your reaction to that what you expect from me Reagan EPA will first am happy to see state regulator be selected for the role suited his next step is to be confirmed the controversy.

You might recall, he was part of the minor close pipeline debacle which led to the instigation and there were whether you're a Democrat or Republican, that really did never get optics that was an agreement between Duke in the pipeline and the administration essentially gave $50 million for a permit and even if it even required a refund of the permit was later rescinded. Whether you're a Democrat or Republican know I like to see permits for sale so that may be a controversy that he may see in the Senate confirmation hearing, but but overall he is interested I think is justice very difficult topic essentially seeks to apply environmental restrictions in a nonuniform way based on demographics.

It's been around for a long time and efforts of the more RAM for long time.

So far there's been very little in the way of rules and so there's going to be a lot of interest. Continued interest in that area.

He had to in North Carolina. He pushed for a program to permit the agricultural industry particular livestock operations misstep on some procedural issues and that the permit program ended up being stated by the court sure that'll get worked out so there's been some miscues of the coal ash settlement where he essentially handed over the ratepayers to Duke. I think that's problematic, but it but all in all I think of the reason he was selected was his interest in justice what you're going to see Biden administration as you see, somewhat similar to when Col. Browner held the position of the White House. I think Gina McCarthy will be sort of a quarterback and their focus is going to be trying to get some kind of legislation through that look like the group looks like the green which is we talked about his list to do about the environment and more to do with our economic model you mentioned Gina McCarthy at the point that you and I are talking, it looks like I'm the President-elect has selected her to be essentially a climate changes are like that phrase also looks like Mr. Biden is selecting Jennifer Granholm to run the energy Department so you're looking at Michael Reagan Gina McCarthy Jennifer Granholm fair to say that that would be a group of like-minded people who would be interested in restricting the rights of North Carolina farmers, land owners, etc. I think you're going to see a large part of their program to be focused on wealth redistribution and under the guise of clean energy but you're going to see a real effort at the EPA specifically on rolling back the definition of the waters of the US and that's something that occurred straighter and Wheeler worked very hard to better define one that's more consistent with the law.

I think you're going to see a return to the Obama approach where there really trying to extend the reach of their authority.

What you see in North Carolina and other places is much of our land used to be federally dictated agriculture specifically so important to North Carolina. Are you expecting that there will be an attempt to somehow cut back on the ability of North Carolina farmers to grow to produce to raise crops and animals etc. help Wheeler world absolutely their provisions of the deal which would speak to that to restrict farming but but an easier approach with which his discretion selected was to to prohibit expansion of the farm use without a federal intervention through the waters of the US definition. I think that's where you can see the earliest action Dr. Don Vandermark is senior fellow at the John Locke foundation. Thank you very much for joining us. That's all the time we have to program this week.

Thank you for listening on behalf of Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for more Carolina journaling Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke to learn more about the John Locke foundation donation support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke called 66 jail left 166-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so clearly reflect the station. For more information about the show.

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