Carolina Journal Radio No. 898: Public school uncertainty prompts interest in alternatives

From Cherokee to current tagging from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state.

A recent US Supreme Court decision offered a big victory for school choice across the country to learn about the Espinoza cases potential impact for North Carolina County, North Carolina Sen. among those willing to back federal action on police reform will hear him discuss the topic with the leader of a group called the Center for policing equity covert, 19 is had a significant impact on farms and government agriculture policy will highlight key pieces of that impact with help from an expert at the Heritage foundation that will discuss how a new HBO drama is sending a message about occupational licensing restrictions. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us and she has Carolina Journal headline as parents search for a plan to educate their kids this fall. A plan that works for them and not just for their local public school system. One state leader is reminding low and middle income parents that they have a scholarship opportunity if they want their child to attend a private school secretary stoops's vice president for research. He's also the director of education studies at the John Locke foundation. He took notice at this news release because it's an issue that he has been writing about and following very closely. Terry welcome back to the program. Thank you Senate leader Phil Berger who is a Republican out of Rockingham County issued this news release just a few days ago and really raises the alarm about at risk kids and the potential for virtual learning to really leave them out.

That's absolutely rights and thank goodness we have an opportunity scholarship program in the first place so that are low income kids can have access to private schools and and that's needed now more than ever in an environment where a lot of school districts in North Carolina and charter schools are migrating to full time remote learning plans numbers keep changing on that but around 30% of school districts around 15% of charter schools have adopted full-time remote learning plans and then encompasses around 40% of the students in the state, and I suspect that's going to increase even more so the opportunities for kids to go to a school that has in-person learning is diminishing every day. And so to have something like the opportunity scholarship available to kids that would be in untenable positions.

When a full-time remote learning plan with is absolutely essential. Tell us a little bit more about the opportunity scholarship who qualifies and how does it work opportunity scholarship program is targeted toward low income households. So were looking at households so I believe that the very top threshold is around $65,000 for family of four and that's household income, not just individual income and those students are only eligible for 90% of the $4200 scholarship that's offered through the opportunity scholarship.

So this is a minimal amount of money doesn't cover all the costs of private school, but it's enough that thousands of families every year.

Sign up for the opportunity scholarship so that they can have at least most of the tuition at a private school covered and they're not attending the expensive private schools that a lot of people think of when they think of a private school that the ravens Croft or Asheville school there attending mainly faith-based small private schools have tuition around six or $7000 a year.

So there. They do have skin in the game and they are also accessing scholarships for that are offered by the schools themselves, so we know over the past several years by looking at the people who applied for and received the opportunity scholarship that this is turned out to be a lifeline for some families who either find that the traditional public school and public classroom isn't working for their child or families where you have an unusual situation. You might have a grandparent in the position of being the legal guardian, and caring for a child and wanting to make sure that time that child has the very best opportunity possible. So it really is a lifeline for all sorts of reasons.

Get Terry we know in our state that there are some elected officials. Some lawmakers who don't like this at all and are pushing to get rid of it. Definitely there plenty of lawmakers that said don't like the opportunity scholarship and they say that that money should only go to pride to public schools and of course our governor is the biggest opponent of the opportunity scholarship program. He has come out on many occasions saying that he wants to get rid of those vouchers and he wants to phase out the opportunity scholarship program. In fact, these proposed budgets that would do just that. That will allow no new students to come into the program. That's the kind of dislike that a lot of Democrats, especially of the more liberal wing have toward the opportunity scholarship program that's not universal by any means their Democratic support for the opportunity scholarship program recognizing the first one-size-fits-all is a poor way to educate kids, but more than anything that were talking about low income, mostly ethnic and racial minority children that would ordinarily not have access to private school if not for the opportunity scholarship program.

Terry used an interesting phrase one-size-fits-all only talked a lot about that here on Carolina Journal radio and you is the education expert have written so much about the need to give parents options to empower them to be able to choose whatever environment works best for their family for their child. As we head towards the F fall school year.

You mentioned that a number of local school districts are now choosing to go online only, at least in the beginning, and you've written a really compelling piece available Carolina Journal.com that talks about the kids who will be left behind. With this one-size-fits-all online environment and one of the.

The categories that you mentioned is a category that we have a lot of than in our state and in our country and that is, single parents, trying to take care kids. That's right. When you look in North Carolina at households and you look at how many are led by a single mother single single father. From 30% of households with children are led by a single father or single mother and in fact if you look deeper at the statistics, the percentage of households that are led by a single father is increasing significantly and I believe it's the highest that it's ever been. So consider the plight of these parents that are now faced with the prospect of a district or charter school, going to full-time remote learning how does that parent navigate that environment.

If they have to go to work and they're looking at having to either allow their child to be supervised by someone else or find some alternative arrangement for them. Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of opportunities to find alternative arrangements were only about three weeks before the beginning school year, so being able to access a charter school be difficult at this point that parent can either choose to homeschool, but that's kind of difficult if they're the sole breadwinner of the family, so things like the opportunity scholarship and private schools, and really the goodwill and philanthropy of those organizations, civic organizations, churches and and others that are trying to fill the void makes it extremely difficult on that segments among many other segments of the population to be able to navigate this new educational environment. Terry, what about homeless kids. I mean, they will be completely left out of this and no one is talking about homeless kids and and in the peace I give a shout out to Brenda Berg of because Brenda has been really at the forefront of talking about what's going to happen with homeless students if they are in the school district that has decided to go with a full-time remote learning plan. She's the one that's really bringing that up and no one else is really talking about it and so state education leaders really need to start talking about these populations, the ones that are really at a disadvantage here of the decision of school boards to go to full-time remote plan.

It's a really compelling piece. I would encourage everyone to read it at Carolina. Journal.com the kids that are and will be left behind by a plan to go to online learning.

Only it's written by our guest, Dr. Terry stoops's vice president for research and the director of education studies at the John Locke foundation Terry, thank you very much for peace. It's an amazing piece. And thanks for joining us to talk about this much more Carolina Journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. Journal.com. You'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles. The powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles. Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot on Carolina Journal.com once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for our daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you look back Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got the US Supreme Court recently delivered a victory to school choice supporters across the country joining us now to assess the good news is Mike Long.

He is president of parents for educational freedom in North Carolina walk back to the program.

Thank you, Mitch.

Nice to be with you again. We are talking about a ruling in a case called Espinoza versus Montana Department of revenue. You recently wrote a column about this and the headline was Supreme Court affirmed.

School choice Tar Heel state celebrates.

Why is the Tar Heel state celebrate what we are celebrating because we have such a fantastic program called the opportunity scholarship in North Carolina that provides scholarship funding for working-class low income families that are stuck in the zip coded school that is not meeting their needs and it provides them opportunity to go to the school of their choice particular private school and even if it's a private religious school. The Supreme Court has upheld that the use of public funds can be used for those types of program so that's a great victory when we have approximately 12,000 students here in North Carolina families in North Carolina that are benefiting from the current opportunity scholarship here.

This is a case that came out of Montana and some of the particulars are not ones that would particularly play out here in North Carolina yet you're looking at this ruling is something that really does have positive benefits even in our state. It does because in 2015 our opportunity scholarship program was challenged in the North Carolina Supreme Court because of the religious implications primarily using tax dollars to fund scholarships for parents to go to private schools or religious schools. It we updated that ruling was upheld in our favor. In 2015. So now that the Supreme Court has essentially done the same thing in the Montana case.

That is, from the top of top so to speak, which is why we are really celebrating that outcome you in your column called this the most important and far-reaching school choice decision by the Supreme Court in decades. It had to be good news as a person who supports school choice to see that the highest court in the land does have the support for choice. It's saying that the state cannot discriminate against parents who choose a private school or even a Christian score of Islamic school or Jewish school. You cannot discriminate against parents choice to go to schools like that. Besides their taxpayers as well and these are tax dollars but this is not supporting a particular religion.

You know it's it's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion and so this court uphold the Supreme Court upheld that and that's why we are celebrating. You mentioned in the columns of the specifics about the plaintiff in this case, Kendra Espinoza, a single mother in Montana working three jobs and she views Montana scholarship to center daughters to a faith-based private school of her own choice, I'm guessing, as you learned about this plaintiff you were thinking of some of the people in North Carolina were in very similar circumstances. Using opportunity scholarship that's correct and that's what's so incredible about the opportunities scholarship program.

It is liberating families in our state where they are stuck in the zip coded school that the state requires them to attend and they are not getting the success from it for their children. Parents know best what their children needs and their education and so the fact that they can now have economic opportunity to make the choice that best fits the needs of their children, educationally, is a tremendous benefit.

That's why we say it's a liberating families. It's getting them out of a situation where their kids can't grow or their family cannot grow because they do not have equal access to great educational opportunities. That is the voice of Mike Long. He is president of parents for educational freedom in North Carolina and one of the interesting aspects of this is, as the Supreme Court is making this ruling, we know that there are some people in North Carolina including people in positions of high government power who are not fans of the opportunity scholarship program. How helpful is it to have a ruling like this when our program faces some high profile opposition will it means they will not be able to challenge this again in the Supreme Court. It's already been decided.

And so it the issues of expanding the program are not expanding the program has to be done in the legislature right now our legislature is very supportive of this program even has a 10 year window out a bit growing. Unfortunately, our current governor is very much against the program actually saying that he believes that the opportunity scholarship is an expense that needs to stop and so parents for educational freedom in North Carolina will continue to fight for families across our state to indeed have the educational freedom to choose the school of their choice that best fits the needs of their children as opposed to the state saying we know better for everyone. Or we want a one-size-fits-all system that is not meeting the needs of all the families in North Carolina. Especially when you have 20% of our families right now.

Choosing alternative styles of education rather than just the public school system.

That's pretty incredible.

That's incredible growth and we hope that it will continue to grow to best fit the needs of families in North Carolina as much as the Supreme Court ruling is a reason for celebration in North Carolina and across the country. You alluded to this, but you also say in the column. This is not a time to just sit back and say okay it's over. We one there still a lot of work to do absolutely. There were there was a bill introduced in the legislature just recently were 40 Democrats actually not one Republican signed on to it where there was language in the bill to eliminate the opportunity scholarship program in North Carolina so they are definitely trying to carry out the orders of the governor to accomplish this goal and do parents for educational freedom will always be there to fight this on behalf of families and students and children throughout the state.

We talked about this and named it the opportunity scholarship but for those who are unfamiliar, remind us how this works and how parents can take advantage of probably one of the best ways to do that is to first will go to our website which is PEF NC.org what what we do is we try to find families that will qualify for this. We help help walk them through the application process with the state we help get them funded and then we help them find the school that best meets the needs of their children. So parents for educational freedom is the leader in that throughout the state and we are here to help any family who who feels like they're stuck or just not getting the kind of education that they need in their zip coded public school to contact us and we will help them get a scholarship that can get them to the school that will best meet those needs. If they qualify, and if they could find a school that helps but leave you get up to $4200 yearly $4200 is the maximum amount we understand that tuitions can be more than that, but we do believe that parents should also have a little bit of you know investment in that education as well but but usually a lot of these private schools will offer financial aid to help meet those needs and so forth. So they're all kinds of great opportunities thanks to the opportunity scholarship program where we can help parents find those schools that will best meet those needs, not only for their children's education but also meet those needs financially. Going back to the column and the way that you wrap it up you call the Espinoza decision an enormous loss for the education elite decision-making class teachers unions and supporters of the educational status quo, but enormous victory for students and families, particularly those of less means. Why do you think that the this outcome from the Supreme Court is so important moving forward because the educational system as we know it was developed back during the Industrial Revolution.

It is so outdated and the thought that one-size-fits-all in today's technological world is just ridiculous.

And that is the voice of Mike Long. He is president of parents for educational freedom in North Carolina. Thanks much for joining us think you will have more on Carolina journal radio just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement@northcarolinaconservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Try it today.

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He discussed the topic in a recent hearing on Capitol Hill.

Robin Hartman a lot of the comments here because it really sounds like we all understand there's a problem we need to act on it that every once in a while I'll hit or drift on either mouse are you also. That makes me concerned there were any get close in order to back off and or corners at the expense of making real progress and I think there's a chance micro progress. Tillis says better law enforcement training should help their good people. The vast majority of them. They just need training and situational awareness where inmate there in these untenable positions that humans make bad mistakes not in the case of Floyd that was a bad human make it a bad mistake and I hope he spends a lot of time in prison.

Tillis shared a personal story. I remember vividly. I lived in a neighborhood in Nashville, Tennessee family fell on hard times, how to sell the house, mood, and no trailer park about amount half down the road. I can tell you the police were cruising through a trailer park at home a lot more than that house I lived in amount amount half down the road and they looked at you differently so there is a socioeconomic and racial component of those so we just have to recognize and and work on it. Tillis had questions for Philip Fatima Goff of the Center for policing equity. I think that data ultimately is going to help us do a better job of coming up with good decisions so we can come together on do we have data right now.

That would suggest there's a correlation between events that are occurring in a community and about outcome like we saw in Minnesota. I think the question is can we figure out what's to be the next Ferguson went on to be the next Minneapolis and we are collecting those data, we have the techniques to do it. I'd say that personal note were not collecting the data, because we are collecting even the major cities. The 80,000 police department.

We got to remember 75% over 25 officers or fewer thousand apartments that are just one guy is not a matter of of of having to cast a wider net for data. It's a matter of having the ability to aggregate data. There probably exist in one form or another, so that we can use it, even in a predictive way over time also need the actual people do the analysis to speak to someone responsible analysis, a part of the question you're asking is about data from community behavioral data we needed another community feeling about the law enforced because the same on paper shooting that happens in a community to trust the law-enforcement and feels good as a very different outcome right. The shooting that happened were folks don't trust law enforcement so we need more and different. We also need the capacity to do that analysis.

That's the president of the Center for policing equity answering questions from North Carolina Sen. Tom Tillis during a recent hearing on Capitol Hill will return with more Carolina jewelry where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different.

It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with S. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko got is the covert, 19 pandemic disrupts food supply in the United States, a national expert is offering North Carolina some helpful analysis Darren Baxter focuses on agriculture issues for the heritage foundation. He took part in a recent online forum sponsored by the John Locke foundation. Baxter started by identifying two separate food supply issues $0.54 every dollar spent on food was spent outside the house and what we see is it is a drastic change in the nature of the demand or food and where the demand is coming from an echo applies across the food supply and that has led to dairy users dumping milk or produce producers letting through rot and it is because there is no destinations for their product anymore because of this changing nature of the demand as to the market needs to adapt and it is this by cable death, shift down to the more retail focused market in the me supply Holter issues unique is connected primarily to the illnesses that exist many processing plants and what we are saying is capacity lower than it's been, and some plants oppose cross-country lighting here. The North Carolina has been his heart has been hurt like other states have been, but I think most consumers in that it people watching this are going to probably see less meat in a grocery store is can be higher prices you still see me, but you may not have the choices that you'd want suits of chicken breast, messy chicken thighs and what Pres. trumpet was. He issued an executive order addressing the meat processing plant challenges that exist some the media reports make it sound as if the president mandated these plans remain open is not what he did.

He did give the authority to the Sec. of agriculture to address these issues. Part of it could be to mandate plants the open that's highly unlikely and that is not what they're trying to do and it's really critical to understand that in that Executive Order. All the actions need consistent with the guidance of the federal government in terms of health, so the health or safety of workers is critical for going to address the me supply disruptions that exist we have to address the health and safety of these workers. Baxter says the pandemic is raise people's awareness about food and he was trying to realize how complicated supply chain is right now how many people are involved and how many are on the front lines is not simply the farmers and ranchers or the other and be grocery stores and restaurants are so many different steps along the way including people. I think the dog in a creditor of the truck drivers are out there making sure that the food actually and other products get to these locations we had and make sure that the regulations that cannot hinder their ability to get this product sufficiently in these cost consumers don't overburden them and they can actually do their job so shows a kind of bear in mind the logistics and transportation steps in many other steps along the way. That's Darren Baxter agricultural policy expert for the heritage foundation. How can we ensure that agricultural industry workers feel safe on the job.

I think this really helps to follow the CDC and OSHA guidelines that would help.

But there are inherent challenges that exist in these plants because if you follow the social distancing guidelines that would lower processing speeds use what has many people at facilities now that might be something you simply have to do that might mean that the workers will feel safer and the if we have an and they have been necessary protective equipment. The feel safer.

But there might be for these amount times the slower processing speeds. As a result of those steps, but I think that certainly work that it as was necessary to get done working and feeling confident to go to the plants again. Yes me that a lot of us expect Baxter referenced discussions on Capitol Hill that could affect the food supply. There is some federal legislation called the prime act that would sooner current law is illegal for farmers and ranchers bring their animals to custom slaughterhouses to have animals slaughtered and then use that meat sold commercially quite sweeping for Congress to believe that they should regulate the intrastate market for me that's exactly how the system works so the prime act would actually allow more flexibility to make it possible for farmers or ranchers, and in this probably cover smaller impact. Smaller producers more to actually go to his custom slaughterhouses have the me and animals slaughtered and how the meat sold commercially. She can do now and*useful for them that might help create a different market.

I don't know that that would have a huge impact in the short term simply because there's not a lot of capacity of these facilities. I will say that the fact of these regulations existed in the in the in the first place certainly has hinder competition and maybe in this prime act became law or something similar became law maybe was decent changing dynamics within the marketplace.

Baxter talked about the importance of short-term versus long-term considerations when changing public policies related to the food supply is needed. Bear in mind that we are in a unique situation right now that any policies we develop. Now in the future you should focus now on this figure. Pandemic and making sure things get more efficient and then goes pandemic and we develop policy want to make sure that were not voting policy. Just making sure that we just pandemic. So we actually develop policy recognizing pandemics are not the typical way of things now on the regulatory side on the farm. Farmers log environmental regulations like the large United States rule permitting requirements for farmers that are questionable in terms of how burdensome they can be either the permit requirements can be a confusing to farmers personalizing impermanence can be very costly side might discourage them from engaging even in ordinary activities, farm activities and what else either the laws can be so vague and confusing that my discourage farmers from engaging activities at all was ever-present.

It is your civil and criminal penalties associated with some these environmental laws, moving up the food chain. Some of things that were seeing began with truckers we sing some waivers of hours of service regulations were and I think some of those waivers should be better clarified and some of those rate restrictions should be lifted and in keeping going as we go down to the retail side be to look a little laws that might make it more difficult or companies to deliver products directly to people to deliver services under restrictions might apply to individuals and one thing is going on now is some restaurants are actually selling grocery store items and when the reasons why they're unable to do that is because in the past, the FDA would have labeling laws that would make it very difficult for them to sell the grocery store items for the restaurant space will meet the nutritional labeling requirements. Yet he is given some flexibility on that.

So that's why you seen some restaurants that I noted this in the past Subway in a Panera bread have been selling some grocery store items listed food so looking at labeling requirements is another way so it is initially questioned to get for more efficiency. We can see how these waivers these predatory obstacles on Dupree problems of get out the way we can make things work better and then maybe after this I get through this pandemic. We should see and evaluate whether or not these changes make sense given that that's Darren Baxter, Senior research fellow in agricultural policy for the heritage foundation.

He took part in a recent online forum sponsored by the John Locke foundation will return with North Carolina Journal bringing out a moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call.

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Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio and another edition of locker room talk, I'm Donna Martinez, joined by my cohost Mitch Cope. I so knew that a much heralded HBO reboot of the Perry Mason detective series would not just be entertaining as Mitch found out but it could also offer a lesson in public policy. So Mitch tell us about this because I fascinated you wrote about this@carolinajournal.com I love Perry Mason yeah and that the interesting thing about this was I really did at 10 o'clock on a Sunday evening as soon as the show was over.

Thought you know this actually has a good lesson about the dangers of occupational licensing. Oh my God so so people who are familiar with Perry Mason, either through the Erle Stanley Gardner novels were more likely because of the long-running TV show with Raymond Burr they know Perry Mason, was this hotshot defense attorney. He goes into court week after week and is always defending the innocent and he finds out who the guilty person is usually on the stand first to admit it that Perry Mason moment exactly. So now HBO has done a new series about Perry Mason, but at the start of the series.

It wasn't Perry Mason. We know this instead is a World War I vet who's struggling in depression era Los Angeles early 1930s. He is ill tempered foulmouthed heavy drinking seems to have a lot of problems and he's not working as a lawyer is actually working as somewhat of a private detective doing some investigative chores for another attorney. This is so much different the profile of then the Perry Mason were used to it very different, and as the show goes on, you realize it's it's what they: the superhero world origin story because you learn about how we ended up becoming the attorney very Mason without giving too much weight apply because it might be some people who have watched it would like to watch it, like me, it's better if at some critical point in the story, the attorney who he had been working with dies and that the client is the chief suspect in the big case of the season and so it turns out that this client is probably going to have to go with a court-appointed attorney who is in cahoots with the DA except that the assistant of the attorney just died comes up with this scheme that hey, let's say, Perry Mason, who's been working is this investigator that you been working in an apprenticeship with the attorney and if you could somehow pass the bar exam between now and when the trial takes place you can be the attorney, no law school involved no law school involved and I thought at the time. What this is kind of far-fetched anyway. But in today's world it would be impossible, because you would even be able to take the bar unless you had the credential of the three-year law school experience and the law degree me. People want to be lawyers get imagistic like a year or so law school and then get the rest through experience. You gotta go all three years.

Get the law degree that will. This is interesting story in there couple of other interesting pieces of this to one is the fact that the person who came up with this plan is Della Street. If you're a fan of Perry Mason remember Della Street was was Perry's secretary assistant in this version of it Della, is it in the old Della was was fine she was.

She was a very important part of the piece a part of the story, but this Della really ran the business and ran the office for that older attorney who died so she knew the ins and outs and you know that she's good to be helping. Mason as things go along and I bet Brodin in this column about this that you will having one talented experience. Della is good to be worth more. Perry Mason than some third-year law school class on a topic that is never to use again. The other interesting piece was for people to remember the Perry Mason show the attorney. He locks horns with case and in case out is the DA Hamilton Burke. Oh yeah, well in the show. Hamilton Burger is this up-and-coming deputy district attorney who helps Perry Mason cram for the bar exam I � and he also what he's meeting and tells them that he's the skill Ivy League law school guy and so that well you know if the show continues beyond just the initial origin story and Perry Mason beats Hamilton Burger in the courtroom just as he did in the old show. It's good to show that someone with some talent and experience and knowledge can lock horns with the person who has all the diplomas so it it really all feeds into this idea that you know you don't necessarily need to have this credential.

If you've got other things working on your bandage and that's something that we deftly need to talk about at this time of economic uncertainty, absolutely because a number of our researchers some along with you I'm writing here for the John Locke foundation have been trying to make the case that we should be getting out of people's way make it as easy as possible for qualified people who know what they're doing, have knowledge and skills to be able to get a job and earn a living. The last thing you want to do, particularly in difficult times like we are experiencing now is to put up additional barriers that you really don't need as I thought it was so cool when I read your column that you saw that in this episode of Perry Mason because in fact I'm friend of ours George Leif has been writing about this particular legal issue with credentialing and law school, etc. for a number of years and it really brings us to this this point of wondering why do in North Carolina and other states. Why do we have so many fences that people have to jump what you want to be a barber takes incredible amount of time in school and money etc. whether you want to be an attorney three years and then pass the bar shouldn't just be if you can illustrate that you're going to do the job and if you don't do the job. Some is not can hire you again yet that should be the case and what we see in many of these cases you reference the barbers and also in the legal profession attends to be the entrenched interests get involved and convince people within the government either within the executive branch or within the legislature that hey you know things will be better off for the customer. If we set these government mandates and so ended that the law schools obviously want people to have to go to law school to become a lawyer and the legal profession. It makes it easier if you're already a lawyer to put up barriers to keep other people from getting in.

And so that's why we tend to see that sort of thing happen barbers as well. Case after case in North Carolina and right now, especially when we have the issues of people needing to find new jobs. You don't want those very and its built-in customers and in terms the law school. He said of course they want it.

Well certainly I'm sure there's dedicated law professors who want to instill you know that the new fresh fresh minds are going into the profession with all of their experience and knowledge of course but at the same time.

When you always know there is a fresh crop of students who are required to come into your business.

Your business of operating a law school I mean it, it means that they really don't have a choice of any other avenues because what if someone wanted to be an apprentice to a Perry Mason are well known attorney and what if that turned out to not only be as valuable as a traditional three years of law school, but what if it was really even more important. Can you imagine if you were actually up at an apprentice in a courtroom for a major trial. You know, it just brings up. I think common sense questions about how were going about this yet and I think one of the best lines.

If I may say so in that column was the real life Perry Mason's can't become Perry Mason's these days because of all those barriers and you think about someone out there who is a a great attentional legal mind.

Some of them can go through the hoops. Others say and I can't do seven years of formal higher Ed that I might have to pay for our big two exact labs I've gotta do something else and so were lost of their talents when it comes to becoming legal minds, barbers or whatever else they might do, where the government stands the way I tell you it's a really interesting column written by my friend Mitch Coke I you can find it Carolina journal.com all about the Perry Mason reboot Mitch, thanks very much. Thank you. That's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening Donna Martinez on behalf of Mitch Coke.

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